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Anonymous 07/24/2020 (Fri) 06:41:13 No. 714557
Hey I'm a Catholic with strong (and increasing) socialist sympathies. It seems to me that traditional the anti-religious animus of is tied to the fact that the Church was once an important institution of the ancien regime/ruling class. But that's pretty much over at this point. The religion of the ruling class is woke neoliberal secular humanism. So is straightforward anti-clericalism from socialists in 2020 an anachronism? I really hope so
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>>714566 Shut up idiot
>The religion of the ruling class is woke neoliberal secular humanism. Wherever the church is a reactionary power, in any facet, it will be opposed. This notion prevails as a major struggle in most nations of the world, and continues even in the west where you contend the ruling class has since sacrificed its piety for a new idol in humanist capitalism. You have a fundamental right and guarantee to freedom of conscience and worship, but this right does not congeal into the free and unchecked power of the church - where religion and the faith of individuals becomes a mechanism to enact ideological goals. Lot of words and whatnot to say your faith is chill, but don't mistake faith in your personal sense for what it becomes in a communal sense. The former is fine, while the latter is and should be subject to scrutiny.
>>714557 >So is straightforward anti-clericalism from socialists in 2020 an anachronism? yes mostly even states like cuba changed from state atheist to "secular"
>>714557 >But that's pretty much over at this point
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>>714557 >But that's pretty much over at this point. Buddy, uh pal. America has a Christian industrial complex. What are you smoking. >is straightforward anti-clericalism from socialists in 2020 an anachronism? Catholicism is much more of an anachronism tbh. this >>714570 is the best answer you're going to get unless someone wants to explain how actual christian-socialism is supposed to work.
>>714557 Are you a Roman or Orthodox catholic? Also how strictly do you practice your religion?
>>714569 >>714591 making fun of white girls for using magic healing crystals is 100% fine but mock the poor poor christians and everybody loses their minds. fuck all of your fantasy horseshit.
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Someone who used to be a rather devout Catholic here, just read Terry Eagleton or about Liberation Theology in general. Hopefully you can make it out towards studying Marx proper, but I would prefer you at least be closer to this side of the divide as a traveler then not at all.
>>714557 We still have the problem of islam, hinduism, etc. These religious insitutions must be abolished for world communism.
>>714557 Check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day Regards, friendly neighbourhood Gnostic.
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>>714609 Ngl that guy had some based takes.
>>714557 Watch Damon Garcia, he’s a good Christian communist Youtuber and read up on liberation theology. Everyone who’s saying cringey anti-theist shit doesn’t understand how powerful religion is for any movement, don’t listen to these retards.
>>714609 Are you really under the impression that Joel Osteen is at the heart o the US ruling class? He sells snake oil to pdoles. Find one tech mogul or walk street tycoon that likes him
>>714849 No, religion is a parasite. Any religious delusions that gain organizational power will inevitably turn reactionary. From an outside perspective, this shit is absolutely fucking insane. You don't realize how much of a schizophrenic cult religious faggots look like from the outside. Humanity is not free until it is free from the parasite of religion as well.
>>714557 >So is straightforward anti-clericalism from socialists in 2020 an anachronism? pretty much yeah
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>>714864 Shut up faggot
>>714886 pope is just babies first fascist structure. Literally a divine cult of personality built on idpol
>>714889 The catholic church is anti id pol thats why governments hate it.
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>Catholic Yea, no. If you just said christian that would be ok, but supporting the Church is reactionary. Religion is a private matter, meaning that you should be able to believe and practice whatever you want, but fuck off from public sphere, it has no place there.
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The catholic church invented democratic centralism.
>>714894 guess what faggot, being a “christian” is an identity, and christians love their christian idpol. SJW’s co-opted it, but christians are the OGs when it comes to having a persecution complex.
>>714899 Guess what I don't care because its true
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>>714897 The Church is to the left of any major party in a developed country.
The catholic church is and has always been one of the most reactionary forces on the planet. You’re an actual fucking class traitor if you support the catholic church.
Basically Ignore the spergs on this website. Catholic socialism is a long tradition ,laid out by the church.Follow God Feed the poor.
>>714910 follow easter bunny feed the poor follow godzilla feed poor follow goku feed the poor why not just cut out the imaginary fantasy bullshit and just feed the poor you tard
>>714914 Because God is real you sperg.
>>714917 prove it
>>714918 Look outside your window and inside your soul.
>>714920 >Brap sniff brap
>>714863 Is your argument that the Christian industrial complex doesn't count because they aren't as big as other complexes? Or is it that they're the only way religion is represented by the ruling class? Because if it's the latter then lmao
>>714557 The problem with organized religions is the same as that of existing unions and communist parties - they don't actually offer robust protections to people from the everyday ravages of capitalism. Tons of people are spooked and spiritual but church attendance is at an all-time low because every existing religious institution is more interested about fundraising, protecting its own against pedo allegations, or pushing reactionary political agendas rather than actually materially helping their congregations. If there was a religious tendency that actually railed against capitalism, pushed for radical change and offered material support to its devotees, its membership would skyrocket. And commies would easily convert, zoomer Dengism is basically a secular religious faith in the CPC to deliver 'socialism by 2050' or whatever.
>>714920 >Just like, look around maaaaaaaan Why are religious people so terrible at justifying their beliefs. When you say shit like this you honestly sound like a drug addled hippy. At least they have an excuse for their retardation.
>>714907 >one article and picture vs years of wealth hoarding, kiddy diddling, and genocide
>>714920 OK I looked, no God there
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>>714557 The Church has an interesting history and it certainly was not wholly evil. I would say it was more bad than good but it would be a caricature to say that it did nothing good in its history.
>>714557 >The religion of the ruling class is woke neoliberal secular humanism
>>714979 Most religious people have no clue about their own religion, so they have to revert to vague platitudes and mysterious phrases to avoid commiting to answers and to lie to themselves so that their dumb beliefs are never held to the fire.
>>714570 I agree with all that expect for the 'religion and faith of individuals [becoming] a mechanism to enact ideological goals'. I think you're seeing all religion as inherently hierarchical to the point where all faith leads to manipulation by a ruling class. People can have faith as their central focus without having it lead them away from a socialist socio-economic system. (Forgive me if I'm mistaken)
>>714897 Here we see the clearest form of ignorance to faith. Even if you don't believe what someone else does, you must acknowledge that their actions in the public sphere will be dictated by the morality of their faith. Even if they don't preach about their religion, it will always affect their behavior. Its idiotic when people just assume that religion has no impact on society because they don't believe in it and want those who do to keep it at home.
>catholic How do you feel about Saul and his Pharisee crew burning anything they didn’t agree with resulting in large gaps and inconsistencies that plagued the church of Saul to this day? Sheesh you can’t even do religion right
>>715756 I don't intend there to say that the social aspect of religion and faith is naturally given to the reproduction of hierarchy, it isn't - though it often does, and is very much presently engaged in this in many spheres the world over. Ones faith and convictions must be considered and addressed precisely because they have practical effects on their position and affaires in the material sphere - and this is the most reductionist reading of the matter, it still absolutely requires that communists deal with and discuss faith as an aspect and enduring feature of human expression in many different fashions and eras. That said, faith as a central focus and those who fall within that set have been rather consistently amongst the most reactionary groups and this, too, bears remembering in terms of the positions of the communists vis-a-vis their policies and attitudes on faith. While it is critical to remember the individual in the faith, and how their behavior is shaped and understood by the relation to the divine, equally important is to understand how these groups of individuals - a collective religious body, have been used to further goals, policy, and ideology that would seemingly defame the position of the religion to the point of rendering it no more than another entirely and openly human institution. This is the position of many of the most powerful religious organizations in the world at present. You are absolutely right that there is nothing inherent in faith that makes one against socialism.
>>715771 Of course I acknowledge it, but what is the alternative, proclaiming it a thoughtcrime? We are materialists, once you strip religion of its economic base and institutional support, it will erode from peoples consciousness too.
>>714557 > So is straightforward anti-clericalism from socialists in 2020 an anachronism? Yes. Militant atheism was completely dropped throughout the communist organizations of the world.
>>714557 I'll stop being anti-church when they stop raping children.
>>714630 >making fun of white girls for using magic healing crystals is 100% You couldnt be more wrong you have it backwards which is characteristic of libruls and their hypocrisy.
>>716028 >the point——————————-> > > you
>>714566 based
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>>714576 >>714557 Bad example, because the church in Cuba is responsible for training "entrepreneurs". The orthodox church in Russia canonized Nicky. Protestant church in East Germany betrayed the Berlin Wall protests for reforms by turning it into reunification. And thats non-fundamentalist/traditionalist instances. It is a parasite on power, and a seditious force.
>>715838 Do you necessarily need to support or even like the Church to be a christian? I feel like Jesus would abhor the church, all the liberation theology advocates even moreso.
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>>716108 Christians being pissy at their own establishment is more than a millennia old, and so widespread, it made it into Crusader Kings 2. It's all just pearl-clutching reaction and "returning to old purity". And what do we think about "reclaiming past glory" or anything of that sort?
>>716152 Well, my point was that the anon I replied to was specifically talking about being anti-church, which at this point is like everyone, not just atheists. So being anti-church isn't being anti-religious, and religious people too can oppose the church.
If only you all would read patristics, you will understand what kind of dumb, vulgar, parafascistic scum of the Earth they were, on what basis every nicene confession therefore lays.
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>>716157 Oh, we're totally anti-religious as well. Fuck outta here with that idealism.
>>716165 Post some choice quotes, then. Maybe you can convince us Romans were onto something feeding them to lions.
>>716086 The difference is that if those were priests, they would be moved to a different parish where they would continue their pedophilia long before those articles were even published. There are two types of priests: Those who rape children and those who cover them when they're found. No other organization is this efficient at hiding pedos, everything else just lets the police investigate, but not the church. Really makes one think, doesn't it? It's funny how defensive you've become on the single mention of childfucking in the church, as if you knew who they really are.
>>716180 Stop wishing people dead.
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>>716170 >Oh, we're totally anti-religious as well. You are. No relevant communist organization in the past 50 years takes that view.
>>716257 >t. christian discord shill
>>716267 How was my statement wrong? Name one (fucking one) relevant communist organization with strong anti religious sentiments. You can't.
>catholic uhhhh cringe take the sikhpill loser
>>716645 I prefer to practice Chinese traditional religions
>>716648 >I prefer to be a cuck ok then
>>716651 Ok pajeetnígger
>>714914 why does this anger you so much?
there's nothing wrong with attacking reactionary institutions but militant atheism is something that should be left behind on the 20th century
>>716180 The thing is, the great ones all are from the 4th century, after they have taken power. It was the new imperial cult. Those fed to lions were the good ones.
>>716257 >No relevant communist organization in the past 50 years takes that view. And guess how low communism has fallen since then.
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Any religion can be tolerated so long as it isn't institutionalized. Institulionalized religion can be tolerated as long as the institutions colaborate with the communist movement, and abstain from any form of direct or indirect political activity. All religious institutions must be able to sustain themeselves and will recieve no incentives from governmental agencies. All religious liberties are considered on the level of the individual who must assume full responsibilty for his practice and interaction with religious organizations. Religious liberties take no precedence over any other established human rights. religious activities must be limited to private spaces and places of worship. Historical or otherwise relevant locations can be negotiated with the public as places of worship for periodical activities as long as they dont prove to be a nuisance to the locals. Something along those lines.
>>714557 >was >once >an DR
Current pope seems alright. There was another pope in the 20th century who was also ok from communist perspective. He got removed though in order to make way for that ultra-reactionary Polish pope, who did a major part in undermining socialism in Poland. I think the Catholic church is still the snake pit it always used to be, except among the different internal orders, factions and sects liberals and Zionists might have gained some influence recently (e.g. the Rothschild heir is actually catholic). In the late medieval era the Evangelic Church used to have a lot of leftists such as Melanchthon, Hus and even actual proto-communists such as Müntzer among it's ranks, but these days it is no better than Rome. It's pretty much a big business with branches in healthcare and charity and engages in privatizing education, too. I'm sure Luther himself would fume about the current state of the Lutheran church, especially about the business part. The EKD is dominated by calvinists, neoliberals and anti-communists and close to the neoliberal Greens (who played an important but often overlooked role in undermining socialism in the DDR). Anglo and burger "protestants" i'd consider even more reactionary than catholics, "protestant" burger sects seem to be composed of far-right lunatics entirely. t. baptized lutheran, but non-religious
>>716086 >Oh right more "Christianity bad" sophistry. If that makes you feel less dumb... Cope. >https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1522158/Gay-couple-jailed-for-abusing-their-foster-children.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5087453/Cairns-gay-couple-Mark-Newton-Peter-Truong.html >OK LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ LMAO nice whatboutism, faggotron, I bet you'll cry like the little faggot bitch you are when your precious Vatican priests are lined up against the wall.
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You don't need to be anti-religion to be a socialist or accept the main tenets of Marxism.
All religion is idealism and is anti-thetical to marxism, hypothetically you could support marxist positions on capitalism and the need for revolution, etc. etc. so yeah we don't have to exclude religious people from the movement but we cannot wave the fact that being religious you would by nature be denying the marxist method of analysis, materialism. "to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule." - Lenin, https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm
>>714591 fedora c r i n g e
>>714630 You are 100% right in this analogy, but they ain't ready for this convo
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>>737839 >you must deny religion and accept the one true religion of historical materialism. hmmmm. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/benjamin/1940/history.htm
>>737856 atheism is the exact opposite of a religion dumbcunt
>>737858 rejection of theism does not necessarily mean a rejection of religion. Any structure, secular or otherwise, can still employ theology you shit eating worm.
>>737858 evangelical militant atheism has religious structural underpinnings
>>737872 > hurr hurr > u organized under a "secular" group > RELIGION > got eeeeeeeeem You sir, are retarded.
>>737878 > evangelical militant atheism > define evangelical: of or according to the teaching of the gospel or the Christian religion. Get out of here you dumb cunt. You literally are too stupid to be here.
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>>737883 yeah ok
Why not be a Jehova Witness instead?
>>737891 Since atheism is a religion > define religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. What god and dogma do I believe in? You're either a troll or just stupid.
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In spite of what atheists believe, science is secular Religion just as much as social justice neoliberalism. Anything can be a Religion if enough true believers can be found. Though contrary to Eric Hoffer's beliefs, civilization would stagnate if no true beliefs were established in the first place. Atheists just try and replace god with their egos and mathematics and Social justice types try and replace it with masochism and Narcissism
Which I forgot to add, don't build a society.
>>738348 No it's not. You're retarded and should be IP banned. Take your mentally ill /pol/ brain rot out of here. Testing hypothesis for validity isn't religion you fucking mentally ill cromagnon.
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>>738362 hello there
>>738348 Is hentai a religion?
>>738362 oh there is more to science than that sweet summer child.
>>714557 >So is straightforward anti-clericalism from socialists in 2020 an anachronism? I really hope so I'm with the position that your spirituality is your own personal affair so keep it to yourself and out of politics. All religious people are responsible for there own spiritual affairs and the state should neither help or oppose them. Why is this so hard for some people?
>>738375 then I'd expect atheists to keep their "non-belief" out of it as well. using logic, ofc.
I like how some people still throw around retard like its somehow ok. but say the n-word once and you're gone. double standard much?
>>738348 >secular religion religion is when people believe things
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>>738365 You just Hitch slapped yourself. You basically proved the point that no matter how many big words you try to use, you're mentally incapable of thinking outside your religious bubble. Which means your opinion on atheism and science dont matter.
>>738384 >implying i'm religious Are you even familiar with Kuhn's work?
>>738381 Ok nīgger
>>738387 You've already demonstrated you dont know the difference between science, religion, secularism, and atheism; why would I continue any further dialog with you? You have the view on science and atheism as that of the average fox news viewer.
>>738378 >then I'd expect atheists to keep their "non-belief" out of it as well. using logic, ofc. In what sense?
>>738383 and they've created an altar around the scientific method, which applies to any argument in this day and age, or so the gatekeepers say. >>738388 yeah I prefer that, thank you fellow sambo
>>738389 Calm down, the Kuhn post was my first post in this thread. So are you familiar with his work or not?
>>738391 by not foisting it on the general population, which many socialist nations failed to do. if you really want consistency, the state should neither support or oppress any religion. of course this is a "best possible worlds scenario"
>>738348 "I fukken luv science and shiet!" might be a religion but scientific theory is not.
>>738392 Who are the scientists praying to? God of testable hypothesis? Big book of big bangs?
>>738396 Enforcing state atheism was very good for China. They're over 40% atheist now.
>>738399 hate to play devil's advocate here but they also have arbitary morals as a result.
>>738399 I agree. Oppression of religion is a very good thing. The nonsense surrounding all religions should not be protected.
>>738397 yeah but its just a "theory" not a plausible "fact"
>>738406 I'm sorry your father drank a lot and wasn't in your life very much.
>>738402 You're going to need to present some evidence for that. How does one even go about scientifically studying morals anyways?
>>738402 All morals from an "authority" are arbitrary.
>>738402 >they also have arbitary morals Like the always very moral popes and kings of medieval Europe who were super religious? Are we really sliding into this sort of idealism that the ideology is primary to creating our behaviour?
>>738409 They cant, thats the point. Thats why religion cannot play moral high ground (but they sure will try).
>>738408 You seem to be projecting. Are you on here trying to witness to fill a void in your life?
>>738408 Projection and rent-free cope. Sums up religious fags like you.
>>738407 Theory is a very robust and substantiated thing anon. Way more so than any religion.
>>738408 >I'm sorry your father drank a lot and wasn't in your life very much. The true face of Christian forgiveness shows itself. More proof that religion is currently not much more than a mile lifestyle choice for most.
So, should I go for Orthodox Catholicism or Roman Catholicism? They seem more based when compared to other protestant strands of Christianity, protestantism is in general pretty cringe overall.
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>>714557 No I think you should be anti-religious if your a leftist, Religion is the negation of human freedom. As to be religious forces you to attain to strict set of values and actions as to disobey, God or Gods will only lead to torment. For example if your religion calls for you to be straight and repress gay thoughts, besides limiting your ability to be free it also limits your ability to be happy. As your constantly self hating if your gay and religious or those around you who are religious including your own family hate and despise you for being born with something out of your control. And religion like nationalism divides humanity into factions who each despise one another, justifies treating one another with like they are less than human. And if you think about what kind of Loving God will torture for something it gave you in the first place. Bakunin perfectly laid out why religion is the negation of humanity, in his book god and the state https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/michail-bakunin-god-and-the-state
>>738433 Neither, religion is garbage. Go read the god delusion and other atheist works to rid your mind of that nonsense.
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>>738433 Become a Quaker.
>>738437 >Recommending garbage modern pop atheism Don't bother, >>738433 go read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Stalin instead.
>>738443 Why not Feuerbach's Essence of Christianity?
>>738443 That pop atheism is denting religion hard bro. Because it points out the flaws, shows that it adds no value to ones life and lacks any proof for a reason to believe in a god.
>>738454 People constantly rag on these nu-atheists and their followers as being neck beard virgins, their only arguments against religion, are science proves God didn't make the earth in seven days shit. And half the time these people just become reactionaries just because it becomes the cool thing to hate the SJWs. Marx and Bakunin had way better reasons to be anti-religious than these clowns.
>>738465 While it is true you can "argue" that religion is bad for working class. You can ommit the need to argue at all by shifting the entire burden of proof on the religious individual to actually prove through reason, logic, and evidence that their belief is actually true. They cant, and probably never will be able to.
>>738472 you actually think belief is based on "reason, logic and evidence" in the first place? have you ever met a religious person or
>>738422 Then so is gayness, blackness, and other forms of construction
>>738478 The fact that you dont think to them its any of this has me questioning if you have?
>>714557 Late 19th century Catholic social teaching is some of the most sublime,progressive and based political philosophy ever conceived outside standard leftist circles. It's also superior to many degenerated leftist philosophies today. T. ex prod - now agnostic
>>738374 >my sweet summer child Go back to reddit you literal fucking subhuman
>>716086 Someone can recognise the repeated crimes of the church regardless of their sexual preferences.
>>716102 >The orthodox church in Russia canonized Nicky This little fact always baffles me, why would they canonise the guy who is most notable for driving Russia into the ground, losing several wars he shouldn't have gotten into, had protestors shot and then got executed because of all this. The church will revert to reactionary thinking wherever it is free to do so.
>>714609 >America has a Christian industrial complex Buddy, uh pal, this isn't the 80's and 90's anymore. Yes the bible shows up in ceremonial activities and yes there are some ancient televangelists still alive and kicking, but for the most part the mainstream right has abandoned religious legitimacy. A good number of right wing figures aren't even religious anymore, they instead worship ideas like the 'free market' or 'ethnostates.'
>>738407 t. Scientifically illiterate dumbass A scientific theory is a reproducible and falsifiable model of reality based upon facts and empirical observations; a theory is not NOT the same thing as a hypothesis. Theories and facts aren't in some hierarchy of "truthfulness" with facts being higher than theories; rather, theories incorporate facts to create an explanation of natural phenomena that can be tested and falsified. Theories that have better predictive power and produce a more accurate model of nature are kept, while inferior and less accurate theories are discarded
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>>714557 Acts 2:44-45, >"All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need." Acts 4:32-35, >"Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. ... 34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. 35 They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." Matthew 6:24: >"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Act 11:29: >"29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" Acts 4:35: >"[...] to the emissaries to distribute to each according to his need".
>>738488 you think people choose to be black or gay?
>>738422 >The true face of Christian forgiveness shows itself. Someone has to repent to be forgiven. >Luke 17:3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,
>>740713 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
>>740258 >h-hey look guys!!!! bible baste!!!!!!! <5 cherrypicked verses
>>740258 Good job its impossible to cherrypick parts from the bible that paint a far less nice picture of Christianity.
ah yes, the secular humanist US empire... look, you could just study the relationship of party and religious socialists and ask genuine questions but this bad faith retarded nonsense where you pull your /pol/ack ideological shit out of your ass and try to sell it as antiliberal right wing third positionist wokeness or whatever the fuck this shit you try to pull, shouldn't have a place here and you can take that and fuck right back off from where you came from


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