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/leftypol/ is a non-sectarian board for leftist discussion. Join the Matrix: https://matrix.to/#/+leftychat:matrix.org Visit the Booru: https://lefty.booru.org/

"Exterminating the peoples of the Americas was a necessary and historically progressive action :)"n Anonymous 10/17/2020 (Sat) 03:36:15 No. 1007513
Why the fuck does this position exist when it's easy to just...not throw your full backing and support behind arguably the greatest crime committed by the bourgeoisie and their Mercantilist forebears? >Ah yes, history happened this way which is why we must accept it was necessary <Don't worry, comrade, you just happen to have been the blood sacrifice necessary so that capitalism could rule the world and we could try and utterly fail to defeat it anyway Why is it that exterminating the indigenous populace of the Americas was "historically progressive" but the Holocaust and Second World War were not? After all, the Holocaust made fascism and genocide illegitimate in the eyes of most and the Second World War spread communism further than anything else ever had. Whereas the extermination of indigenous Americans was one of the primary inspirations for the Holocaust. If the deaths of the native Americans were justified so that the bourgeoisie would get the grand opportunity to destroy Life on Earth (fuck you, faggot, Marx didn't foresee climate change, sucks to suck, turns out porkies didnt "progress" shit); why wasn't WWII 100% justified, based, and redpilled if it spread communism far and wide?
Both support for and condemnation of historical actions that occurred beyond our lifetimes and our influence is pointless moral masturbation.
>>1007534 And yet people here constantly do it with the now defunct Soviet Bloc and the old communist movements that have long since failed People here still take sides about a fucking war that happened in the 30s in a country almost nobody here even lives in between factions that no longer even exist
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>>1007545 You really can't see history without the spooky morality goggles, can you?
>>1007559 Where’s your argument, fag? I’m not the one hellbent on defending the crimes of the bourgeoisie Explain whether the Holocaust was good or not, go on Or rather I want you to go to a huge ass crowd of people, take a multiple child rapist with you, tell the crowd their crimes, then say that lynching or arresting this person is spooked
>>1007513 You know you are just as cringe as rightwingers who keep whining about muh heckin precious constantinopel, right?
>>1007587 Funny how you cunts would never say this shit about General Plan Ost or the Holocaust
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>>1007564 Stay mad, faggot.
>>1007596 >>1007596 I’m not mad Just secure in the knowledge that egoist-fascist faggots should die :)
>>1007590 There are still people alive who were affected by those events, so it's not really comparable.
>>1007606 >Unlike the deeply impoverished, crime-filled, drug-filled “reservations”, of course Burgers are fucking detestable...
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>>1007603 >egoist-fascist
>>1007606 So in 50 years the holocaust won't matter anymore?
>>1007612 The fuck do egoists even bring to the table beyond their >Lol opposing genocide is spooked Brand of faggotry? A literal fucking worthless philosophy that was supplanted by Marx over a century ago that only continues to scurry about in shadows due to internet memes, every single writing by Max Stirner should be destroyed I always wonder to myself if a stirnerite facing a hail of bullets can just make the bullets vanish by remembering violence is just a spook
>>1007610 You realize they are not forced to live there, right? >>1007615 Yeah wait a sec let me check with my future self how people feel about the holocaust in the year 2070
>>1007622 Bro you're retarded.
>>1007622 People in 2020 still think exterminating the natives was evil, tf are you on? This is only controversial to burgers because the sanctity of murder is a part of their national identity
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>>1007513 Anchient history is filled with this kind of shit
>>1007606 Also the point isn’t if >There are still people affected The point is that faggots justify the genocide on this continent because it was “necessary” (it very likely was not, tbh) for capitalism to exist Therefore WWII, the Blitzkrieg, and the Holocaust, by this logic, were all justified because they allowed for the Warsaw Pact to be created and allowed revolutions all over the world; only 85 million people had to die for hundreds of millions to briefly experience liberation from capitalism, is this not progressive and good?
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>>1007620 >doesn't understand spooks >still mad about them It sounds like you have made "spooks" into a spook.
Every event in the past was necessary and had to happen in the way it happened to get us to this present moment. What's all this talk about morality?
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>>1007620 Are you going to be OK fam? Where did the large foreheaded man touch you?
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>>1007643 >The present moment You mean the planet's entire biosphere collapsing, crop failures starting to mount all over the world, the utter defeat of the communists, and the world lurching towards another global conflict? Exterminating a continent was worth it for this? Fuck you
>>1007624 Nobody is saying it wasn't evil, it's just fucking retarded to obsess over it. Again nazis say the same shit about the early muslim conquest to justify their mass-deportation fantasies. It's fucking stupid. It's also interesting to me how nobody ever gives a shit about interracial atrocities, it's only relevant when you can get some idpol racial grievance points out of it.
>>1007631 who caress, this is ancient history, you might as well start complaining about how the ancient Persians massacred the Greeks
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>>1007654 never4get
>>1007659 bruh by in large this shit occurred four to five hundred years ago
>>1007651 >It's also interesting to me how nobody ever gives a shit about interracial atrocities Tf is an interracial atrocity, you mindless burger? Can you even name one? Funny how you'd be shidding and cumming if this was about General Plan Ost but if it's about the far worse genocide that actually succeeded in its plot to more or less exterminate an entire group of people suddenly it's "idpol" Interesting how a continentintal scale genocide is "identity politics"
>>1007513 >genocide good! Can we ban the pseuds who say this, they're either actual children or /pol/yps
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>>1007661 By and large this shit occurred in the 18th and 19th Centuries amerilard fag
>>1007666 the collapse of the missipian civilization, incan empire, and aztecs didn't. Most of the native americans died off in the sixteenth century due to diseases and the civilizational collapse caused by this and early Spanish colonization.
>>1007666 The actual genocide did, but smallpox thanos snapping 90% of the americas wasn't really intentional.
>>1007670 that's not what I'm saying, what I am saying is that if you dig back far enough every culture has skeletons in the closet
>>1007673 >Time for Amerilards to yet again invoke the Black Legend to explain how their infinitely more totalized and successful extermination of North American tribes was technically not as bad as a genocide hypothetically could have been
>>1007650 I didn't say it was good, or that this world is good. Just that it was necessary to get us into this moment, just like everything else in the past. I don't know who or what you're mad at tbh. Some /pol/tards said Christopher Columbus was based?
>>1007676 Notice how I don't blame Europeans for smallpox?
>>1007684 I know I just knew some genius would think the Spanish coofing is genocide
>>1007683 Honestly I just dont fuckin get how, curiously, the only subject treated as necessary to create the present was exterminating the indigenous American peoples Discussions of the Holocaust or even Jewish culture is never peppered with "yea well killing off 2/3 of European Jews and other people was necessary to create the present"
>>1007691 Isn't it wild how it was specifically the ruling classes of these societies that directed such crimes and yet anons here will still justify it?
>>1007666 No it didn't. It occurred in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries after Cortez and Pizarro conquered New Spain.
>>1007693 >Discussions of the Holocaust or even Jewish culture is never peppered with "yea well killing off 2/3 of European Jews and other people was necessary to create the present" Wait until 2200, the Holocaust (and WW2 braoudly) will be talked about in a similar way then.
>>1007701 >Amerishart doesn't know the history of his own country Color me surprised
>>1007703 >the Incan empire existed in the rockey mountains enlighten us more wise one
>justify it Is this thread a raid? What is this postcolonial moralfagging?
>>1007709 >Amerishart genuinely buying into the myth that North America was "vacant land" nobody lived in Fuckin shocker
>>1007711 Man I'm so sick of post-Soviet moralfaggotry discussing the moral implications of General Plan Ost and the 1991 dissolution of the USSR
>>1007713 The population density of North American in 1800 was much lower then it was in 1500, it wasn't empty land, the trial of tears was a thing, but it was pretty sparsely populated.
>>1007718 Show me those threads.
>>1007725 >>225088 That was fuckin easy
>>1007730 >sick of it >thread made 800,000 posts ago
>>1007726 all I said was that most of the native americans who died did so at the hands of disease
>>1007726 >posts a quote from 1515 as evidence that Tenochtitlan was densely populated in the ninteenth century >1007730 >cites a thread asking about historical occurances in Russia following the dissolusion of the USSR as evidence of moralfagging Am I on your ruse cruise right now?
>>1007740 >Tenochtitlan was densely populated in the ninteenth century Yeah, thats Mexico City you genius, of course it was.
my /pol/ sense is tingling
>>1007718 No one moral fags about that here if their opinion matters, you pearl gripping weirdo. If it’s talked about it’s for pragmatic reasons This thread is pointless whining.
>>1007762 Probably. They don’t like being told they’re spooked.
>>1007762 >Hehe come comrades, literally anyone that criticizes our terminal repellent autism is either from /pol/ or CIA! Fucking schizo freak
>>1007876 Not only is that not OP, that is quite literally what you stirnerite scum have been arguing for the entire thread
>>1007879 They didn’t. Aristocrats who believed in manifest destiny because of their esoteric liberal freemasonic principles did that.
>>1007885 Tell me what I’ve been arguing for, I’d love to know.
>>1007894 Re-read your own arguments, stirnoid Notice that your position is, inherently, not that decolonization is wrong, not that “huwhite genocide” is wrong, but specifically that one should not feel disgust towards one of the largest genocides in human history because “lel spooks” It’s why every stirneroid should be dumped in a warzone and left there
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم. وَالْعَصْرِ. إِنَّ الإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ. إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ … By time, Indeed Man is at loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. Scientists are lost when they try to measure the progress the civilization has made and they will say things that do not make sense to conclude after that we are progressing and have reached the culmination of the human civilization. Measuring the evolution of humanity is an easy task and is measured in terms of the attainment of the goals of humanity or in failing in attaining these goals. This progress could not be measured by the height of towers or highrises. We say that the progress of humanity received a serious blow in 1492 when the savage invaders triumphed over the civilized indigenous. Another blow was the occupation of Palestine in 1948, not to mention what happened in that interval. We might even more correctly say that these two incidents were but parts of the slow devolution of humanity and regress of civilization. The triumph over the indigenous changed this encounter between the Native and the Settler into something totally devastating whereby humanity – as such — was deprived of getting acquainted with its originality, as it were, through a culture and a civilization that were beneficial to human beings to the benefit of a civilization that was destructive and socially and spiritually inferior. The details of such an encounter will cause your hair to stand on end for there is nothing like it to compare it to. It is the darkest spot in the history of humanity . Do you know for example that the Natives used to bring presents to the settlers and that those same natives were mercilessly killed after they delivered their gifts ? Do you know that in Massachusetts the use of guns was banned except for killing the wolf and the Indian and that they used to kill the wolves with poisoned meat and the Natives by distributing to them small pox contaminated blankets which caused the total extinction of four native nations ? What to say about feeding their dogs with native children flesh ? Not to forget what they did the Black Africans they kidnapped from the African shore whom they chained and whipped and killed and threw overboard as a meal to the sharks? Shall we add more ? Shall we add Hiroshima and Nagasaki on which they experimented their newly found weapon? What about Vietnam and Iraq ? What about Palestine and Afghanistan ? What about Guantanamo and what about Syria ? And what are they doing to Syria and how is what is happening in Syria an expression of democracy and a revolution? Why are they raping women and hanging children in Syria under the eyes of all and in front of all ? Why are they destroying Syria while calling for the toppling of the so called dictator, and who are they and who is the dictator ? Let us see in comparison how a Native from Lenape Nation addressed the white settlers on one occasion. The Native said to the settlers, “We want to live peacefully with you as we lived with other people before. And if one day we thought of waging war on you, we will let you know beforehand and show you the reasons for doing so. In case you show convincing reasons or compensate us for the losses that pushed us to declare war we will give up on fighting you. And if one day you decided to wage war on us we hope that you will let us know and show us the reason behind it, and in case we fail to convince you and compensate you for your losses, then your war will be justified, otherwise you will have no right to declare this war.” Now you can judge for yourself and compare the Natives ‘ conception of war with what is happening in Syria or Iraq right now, and you can – according to this — determine who is civilized and who is not. No doubt that humanity has drifted and sailed very far from any reasonable, sensible , moral behavior like the one coming from the Native Indigenous to the point that we ended up in the arena of a circus were predators prey daily on the weak while no one objects. But this is only one part of the picture because this regression in civilization — that had started much more than 500 years ago — was reversed recently in the Islamic Revolution of Iran and in the victory of Hizbullah over Israel where a more humane civilization and a more ethical one defeated the civilization of might and fight and deception and greed. And not only this but we can say that in this tug of war it is morality and high ethics that defeated the predators more than the use of weapons or physical material force. This defeat is also that of the predators’ culture , and from here comes the importance of such victories. A new horizon and opportunity of reversing the regression of civilization is presenting itself whereby all people are called upon to support this change and to secure total and continuous defeat to the savage of the west and put humanity again in the direction of progress.
>>1007906 Is that the declaration of the Iranian Revolution or something?
>>1007903 There’s more than one of us, you know that right? The only anon I saw repping Stirner said it was “pointless”, and it is. Unless you’re going to lay down some pragmatic advice about colonialism, and which there’s already Marxist who have done this, then what is your point? You don’t have one. You’re just jerking your dick and virtue signaling.
>>1007903 Ok, these things are bad. What's the point of getting all worked up about the past?
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>>1007910 The problem with Iran is not Islam but is nativity . Europe has a problem with Natives and with each people that cling to their culture and Religion and keep their heritage close .The Europeans have lost their identity . They have become nobody . They belong to the firms and cartels and highrises and to the shopping Malls and to the banking systems and educational systems and to Hollywood and you name it. The Europeans are no more connected to their original culture and Religion, they have become totally conditioned. and they have taken Natives into enmity especially when these Natives try to prove themselves and evolve and progress while clinging to their culture. The European does not accept such challenge that jeopardizes his self image . What we are witnessing is the continuation of the war on the Native Nations that started five hundred years ago whereby Native children who spoke their native language in the residential schools were punished by having their tongues pierced with needles . That is is why the Europeans are not lifting a finger to protest against Yemen against children being starved and civilians targeted and a country destroyed and its people genocided . We do not hear any one protesting or raising the voice , but it is a matter that seems accepted and approved of . This might sound strange but this is the truth . As the Native Nations did not deserve to live . so also the Yemenis, the Palestinians , the Iranians and the Syrians and Libyans etc.. do not deserve to live , and the Homo European is totally comfortable with this .
>>1007925 >>1007926 Why almost every single time this topic is brought up do people here jump to instantly justify it? That’s literally in the OP, that is effectively all the OP has asked Not a single person has even given me an answer The answer is basically >Well not justifying it is spooked The Holocaust is never, strangely, justified My real question is why are American anons hellbent on justifying a historical genocide until pressed on it then their position suddenly morphs into “Well it was so long ago why should anyone care?” Sickening if you ask me, if you wanna justify genocide don’t turn back around and justify every genocide imo
>>1007937 Who has justified genocide in here? Or past genocide. Saying it's pointless to care about isn't justifying it. And it's equally silly to get emotional about the Holocaust, Genghis Khan, the Boxer Rebellion, etc. etc.
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>>1007937 >The Holocaust is never, strangely, justified Hi, /pol/. Now fuck off.
>>1007961 Choke on a cock dipshit, my point isn’t that “Le joos” control everything, my point is obviously that the Holocaust is seen as somehow distinctly worse because it occurred in Europe and gets media buzz, however the extermination of an entire continent using roughly the same methods as General Plan Ost, if a more primitive version, is seen as necessary or okay or you just shouldn’t give a shit nope
>>1007961 Considering the response to this post was a shitpost using a still image from a fucking 1980s horror movie to justify exterminating the natives I’m guessing you’re a dishonest cunt who knows good and goddamned well what my point with the Holocaust is
>>1007937 Who is justifying it? Again, is there something pragmatic you want to do here?
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>>1007969 >>1007976 Fuck off, /pol/.
>>1007983 >Who is justifying it? Um, how about this person, probably the faggot sage poster? >>1007904
>>1007983 >>1007994 (me) Not to mention this entire thread was created after the fags in /IG/ were arguing about whether or not exterminating people here was good because >Hehe well the savages weren’t even advanced enough to develop feudalism!
>>1007994 >>1008001 1. That’s not even in the same thread. why tf are you blaming Stirnerist for this? 2. That’s /pol/ bait, for fuck’s sake. You’re either incredibly new, naive, or /pol/ yourself if you think that’s emblematic of the entire board’s opinion.
>>1007969 >my point isn’t that “Le joos” control everything, my point is obviously that the Holocaust is seen as somehow distinctly worse because it occurred in Europe and gets media buzz this is true. The same goes for the late victorian genocides in africa and the genocides in asia in the 20th century. The holocaust gets a "special" place in history because liberalism can't deal with the fact that a developed capitalist society did this. Actually dealing with this calls the "civilizing" of capitalism and liberalism into question.
REMINDER
>Now there's two people moralizing about genocide from both anti and pro positions Will no one think of the spooks?
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While USA is sowing havoc everywhere and drowning the planet in blood and tears and destabilizing societies and countries and exposing legal presidents and governments and states targeting their economy and resources and threatening their unity, no one is exposing USA for what it is. No one is saying that USA is a usurping state and a colonialist power that usurped Native land after genociding its inhabitants and that it should be fought and dismantled and tried for war crimes and genocide , and that the call should be for decolonizing the United States and Canada. Where is the world campaign that exposes USA for what it is? . Where is the call to end the colonization of north America ? We do not see such campaign anywhere .There are calls for liberating Palestine but there are no call for liberating the land called America . The reason why the USA grew to become a monster is because we kept silent over this matter for centuries , and it is just now that it is surfacing a little bit without much impact . Because we let the first genocide happen , the second the third and the tenth genocide have become possible, and this will continue and more genocides will be committed , and the planet will be set on fire if we do not take care of this matter seriously. The legitimacy of the UNITED STATES as a country should be put at stake and questioned and investigated , and the legitimacy of the original people should be restored . A campaign across various countries should be conducted for this purpose, and the original people brought back to the scene again as the owners of the land of America or Turtle Island or Mashika as they call it. The Natives are still around, and they carry their story with them, and their memory is still alive , and we can collect from them all what they carry and take their testimony . Let Iran the Revolution start this process of the decolonization of the United States . And like it replaced the embassy of israel with the embassy of Palestine, let it replace the embassy of the United States with the Embassy of Turtle Island, and open a diplomatic mission for the Native indigenous, and invite them to represent their land that has been usurped hundreds of years ago by the usurping colonisers and promote their righteous cause . There is no other way to undermine USA and defeat the monster except by questioning its origins and revealing its history and giving a blow to its legitimacy .
>>1007969 >Choke on a cock dipshit, my point isn’t that “Le joos” control everything, my point is obviously that the Holocaust is seen as somehow distinctly worse because it occurred in Europe and gets media buzz, however the extermination of an entire continent using roughly the same methods as General Plan Ost, if a more primitive version, is seen as necessary or okay or you just shouldn’t give a shit nope >>1008055 >this is true. The same goes for the late victorian genocides in africa and the genocides in asia in the 20th century. The holocaust gets a "special" place in history because liberalism can't deal with the fact that a developed capitalist society did this. Actually dealing with this calls the "civilizing" of capitalism and liberalism into question. Other anon here, i agree with the ideological analysis for the motivation of how historic events are framed and different moral standards are applied. However from a Marxist point of view increasingly advanced means of production pushes the sweet-spot for political stability of a system towards civility rather than barbarity. Capitalist barbarism like the holocaust become unstable configurations of matter. Such states can occur but only briefly due to overwhelming statistical odds stacked against it. Maybe the disparity in felt horror for equivalent brutality of historical events is in reality a kind of morbid surprise of the occurrence of such events, not the nature of the event. The holocaust feels so much more horrible because it happened at a time when the technical capacity to produce standards of living was already quite advanced in historical terms. There is a historical trend of progression towards higher degrees of civility, and people do seem to a have a intuition for that.
people of privilege are soulless bugs operating within a very small range of emotions every theory they developed mirrors this, with only very few of them being worthy to be part of our means to authentic determination do not confront the aforementioned with people of privilege logic
>>1008152 We want a USSA, United Socialist States of America. Turning back time to restore a state from before the colonial era is a kind of traditionalism, with no root in reality. Socialism is not backwards looking. Political struggle has to be focused on the present and the future. Lessons from the past have to be learned, but dead history must not suffocate the living.
>>1007513 I already answered you months ago. Stop using Twitter or wherever you're getting butthurt at.
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>>1008249 >We want a USSI, United Socialist States of Israel. Turning back time to restore a state from before the colonial era is a kind of traditionalism, with no root in reality. Socialism is not backwards looking. Political struggle has to be focused on the present and the future. Lessons from the past have to be learned, but dead history must not suffocate the living.
I think people in this thread are looking at this in a weird absolutist way, particularly in the "moral" framing of it. The reality is that there were few scenarios one can realistically imagine in which many natives did not die upon European discovery (or re-discovery) of the continent. That doesn't necessarily make it "good", and we shouldn't obtain some perverse obcene enjoyment from it, but it's not like there is some argument going around that with modern technology and understanding, we should do so again. The holocaust is also a pretty bad example to use, because it was a regressive reaction to anti-capitalist progression through the scapegoating of its issues on a population.
>>1008260 >We want a USSI, United Socialist States of Israel. Turning back time to restore a state from before the colonial era is a kind of traditionalism, with no root in reality. Socialism is not backwards looking. Political struggle has to be focused on the present and the future. Lessons from the past have to be learned, but dead history must not suffocate the living. Palestinians are being slaughtered right now, they are the living, they exist in the present, they still have a future. You can not justify your position with denial and distortion.
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>>1008269 To awaken to the Palestinian cause is to awaken to all causes, it is to awaken to causes that have fallen somehow into oblivion , this is because the Palestinian cause is an international cause that has awakened in the hearts of many people the desire to be free and the possibility of that freedom . . . For this the Palestinians have sacrificed a lot, many lives were offered to keep the fire of the liberation of the people burning in the hearts of all people. This fire has cast a light over many hidden truths , many facts that were kept secret because the enemy had mastered the art of dissimulation and camouflage over centuries and centuries, turning history into made up stories, into movies produced in Hollywood studios. The truth that is uncovering right now is that Israel was not first founded on the land called Palestine, the first Israel was founded five centuries ago on the land called north of America by the white settlers, the Anglo Saxon puritans who thought that this land has been promised to them the same way Palestine has been promised to the Zionist Jews. The United States of America is really the first Israel as the usurpers white settlers are the first Zionist Jews. The Natives of north America can look at Palestine as if they are looking at their own self. From Palestine they can draw the actuality of their cause and its universality . Palestine will keep their cause alive , Palestine will keep their dreams alive as well. Let each Native indigenous make the Palestinian cause his own. Let him make the Palestinian Resistance his own and the Palestinian freedom fighter his own brother; this way the native dream of retrieving the land and the right to exist on one’s own land can become true. This way peace to the deceased ancestors can be brought. God bless the Native Nations. God bless the Resistance of all people striving for liberation.
>>1008271 You are trying to steal support from the living Palestinian struggle, for your dead causes. It is sabotage. Maybe it is unintentional.
>>1007513 What is "justifying" for you? We just state that this shit is just the way things are, nature is a bitch, histmat is a bitch, what's done is done. There's nothing more to be said. And I'm not even american or euro, but this shit on a smaller scale happened everywhere, that's just the way historical progress works.
>>1008280 >You are trying to steal support from the living Palestinian struggle, for your dead causes. The Native indigenous struggle is not a dead cause. Natives are still very much alive and very much continue to deal with the consequences of genocide and land theft. And the Native indigenous connecting with their Palestinian brothers in the anti-colonialist struggle is not "stealing support", it is strengthening both. It is making alliances of the oppressed against the oppressors. Venezuela and Iran, Cuba and DPRK, etc etc reaching out for each other as allies against the Western colonialism does not imply a "stealing of support" of one from the other anywhere. What it does imply is a strengthening of the position of targeted countries and peoples. >It is sabotage. Maybe it is unintentional Not sabotage at all. The Palestinians and the Native indigenous share the same enemy (Western colonialism) under 2 different fronts (USA and Israel, both settler colonial states, with the latter dependent on the military protection of the former for its survival)
>>1007681 The black legend had lots of truth to it, that is why it was seen as credible at the time
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>>1008269 >Palestinians are being slaughtered right now Palestinians are slaughtered and have their land stolen by the Zionists to consecrate the colonialist Israeli entity. As the Native indigenous were slaughtered and had their land stolen by the white Puritan European settlers to consecrate the colonialist USA entity. >they are the living As are the Native indigenous, they are still alive. >they exist in the present As do the Native indigenous. >they still have a future. As do the Native indigenous. >You can not justify your position with denial and distortion Who's the one denying the clear parallel between the Puritan European settler colonization of America and the Zionist colonization of Palestine (which is based on the former as a model) and distorting truth in the process? >B-but the European invasion, usurp and genocide of the Natives happened a long time ago :^) "Theft does not become legitimized with time, so it doesn't matter how much time will pass, or if the entire world recognizes the legitimacy of this theft with time." - Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah
>>1008317 You are obnoxious and dull. You come to this board and address us in a this extremely grating patronizing way as if you aline are the enlightened. You actually don't even care about the opinions of others you're merely here to push your talking points for moribund political projects. The reality is is that the palestinian and the pathetic movement that is called the “indigenous movement” are resounding failures and increasingly marginalized movements. Your pettiness is commensurate with the ineffectualness of your political desires. I tell you this: your dickishness and idealist insistence in pointing out some similarities how essential linking two weak movements together across the globe is the basis for some indigenous revolution is a childs fantasy. Good luck convincing the centuries old inhabitants to cede the US to the original inhabitants who number in a few million at best and are hopelessly divided impoverished and riddled social issues from drug abuse to domestic violence. What is your actual proposal beside posting on a cantonese figurine forum? Because all of your posts are nothing but hot air and fantasy
>>1008296 >Palestinians are slaughtered and have their land stolen by the Zionists to consecrate the colonialist Israeli entity. As the Native indigenous were slaughtered and had their land stolen by the white Puritan European settlers to consecrate the colonialist USA entity. So in your mind this is a dispute about property ownership ? Are you a even socialist ? I see the Palestinian struggle for the right to exist, to live in peace and prosper.
>>1008152 I get that the genocide was bad, but this is just shizo autism you cant compare the situation with Palestine, there are literally more Arabs in Palestine+Israel than there are jews. there are only 5 million native americans alive today, many of which look like Elizabeth Warren. they dont even make 2% of the population. "liberating america" is a complete joke, what are you going to do? Install the 2% of the population as the new elite of the country in some sort of caste system? Give ownership of all the land to 2% of the population? please also, I dont know what kind of shitty education system your country has, but everyone knows about what happened. And dont get me wrong, the conquest of the americas must be viewed as one of the biggest tragedies in Mankinds history. but what you are suggesting is straight up stupid.
>>1008242 go home sakaifag go home
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>>1007928 It's as if a certain something that happened within the last 200 years made the Europs this way; if only there were any solutions for it
>>1008452 Like the workers seizing the m.o.p. Developing technology and industry to serve the purpose of betterment.
>>1008403 >many of which look like Elizabeth Warren. Most native americans are just LARP these days anyways. Anybody can become a Cherokee if fhey can "prove"(falsify) descent from a cherokee or a cherokee slave (hence why you have 100% black """"natives""""). This stupid line of sakaifag thinking might make sense locally (say for example the four corners region, which is majority Navajo) but deporting hundrds of millions just to give a few white and black larpers land is absurd. Hell I could be considered "Native American" since I have some inuit ancestry, yet I'm obviously white and frankly dont give a fuck about snowman ancestry
>>1008152 >Wampanoag There are like 100 people left who claim any Wampanoag descent and only like fucking 12 know a lick of the Wampanoag language. Even then most wampanoag are majority black since apparently they couldn't resist the black bvll
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>>1008403 >>1009283 >>1009289 It is necessary to re awaken the National pure Native Spirit . The problem is that the Natives were partly assimilated by Big Brother .The conflict with the Native Nations is not an internal United States conflict .It is an attack of one state over another state and an occupation . It is not a conflict within US even if the US administration tries to picture it as an internal issue. This conflict has to do with a Nation attacking other Nations; it is an International struggle and not a National one where people were assaulted by other people and their land usurped. Therefore the Native Nations should represent their own selves as separate Nations and have their separate International representation and separate delegations to countries that are friendly like Iran and Syria and Venezuela and Cuba and North Korea. The delegations that represent the Native Nations should visit and establish independent relations with these countries under the banner of the Native Cause . Let it be cultural and friendly relations of exchange and mutual recognition and help or whatever , let the Natives be internationally known and recognized as different from the US and above all let them themselves be convinced of that and let them extricate themselves from all association with US administration . The Native Nations should promote their cause internationally via these delegations and ask for international support to their bidding. The size of a cause does not lie in the number of its adherents but in its potency and righteousness .Long live the Native Nations and let US "democracy" find its place in the garbage of history. >>1008373 The USA is not the world, it is together with Europe a colonizer and nothing but a colonizer. The Natives Nations should reach for Iran, for countries that are being challenged and banned and besieged by the United States and who are being successful in meeting the challenge and surviving and growing to become regional powers . The Native Nations should present themselves as the owners of the land and the real people of what is called America. Let them get their act together and unite and start talking about opening an embassy in Iran and start diplomatic relations and behave as the owners of the land . Then US will shrink and appear as it is which is another israel . Iran, previously, closed the embassy of israel and opened in its place the embassy of Palestine. We look forward to see the Embassy of the Native Nations in Tehran who are the real owners of the land called America like the Palestinians are the real owners of Palestine. A new Horizon will open for the Native Nations, and it is the right time when US is being exposed for what it is , a blood thirsty predator that preys and is still preying on Natives everywhere. >>1008378 1940-1941: French, Eastern Europeans and Soviets are slaughtered and have their land stolen by the Nazis to consecrate the colonialist Nazi Reich. >So in your mind this is a dispute about property ownership ? Are you a even socialist ? [Smugly refuses to support the cause of the French resistance, the Eastern partisans and the Red Army in their struggle to retrieve the land against the Nazi colonialist occupier because "disputes over property ownership are bourgeois :^) " ] >I see the Palestinian struggle for the right to exist, to live in peace and prosper. The Palestinian right to exist and prosper is inseparable from the Palestinian right (as natives) to retrieve the land and the Palestinian right (as refugees) to return to their homes. "From the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea" is not mere rhetoric, but a statement of intent of the Palestinian resistance to dismantle the colonialist Zionist state and retrieve the land of Palestine from the foreign usurper.
>>1009409 >The Native Nations should present themselves as the owners of the land and the real people of what is called America who cares? 5 million people of native ancestry (most are of mixed European ancestry) cannot simply kick out 300 million other inhabitants from a country without a gigantic ethnic cleansing just as brutal as the original congestion. I suspect though this is part of your power fantasy, where you imagine that all "unoriginal inhabitants" not of native blood are tainted by some kind of original sin that is inherited in their pigmentation and facial features. You are, in a word, a retard and an exterminationist at that. I suspect though you are just a clever troll or a deluded idiot high on his own fumes >We look forward to see the Embassy of the Native Nations in Tehran who are the real owners of the land called America like the Palestinians are the real owners of Palestine. why does this read like a press release? are you actually a human or are you going to address me as a subject that you merely propagandize toward in a contemptuous way? I highly suspect you are a troll or bot at this point.
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>>1009516 The birth and rise of nations is a field of its own, and the rise of nations has proper requirements . How do nations arise and how do they grow . Nations are born as the word nation shows that derives from nativity. Thus nations are alive and nations grow , and their growth is a slow natural process, and is encompassing, and includes most aspects of life, and is the result of many interactions . A nation grows like an individual grows. And after it grows, it prospers in proportion to its rectitude and as long as this rectitude lasts the nation will last . The famous poet says that Nations exist as long as they are ethical, and they go when their ethics go وَإِنَّمَا الأُمَمُ الأَخْلاقُ مَا بَقِيَتْ فَإِنْ هُمُ ذَهَبَتْ أَخْلاقُهُمْ ذَهَبُوا . There are countries and states that instead of relying on their own potential and resources and above all on their creator , they covet the resources and potentials of others, and desire to grow on the wealth of other peoples and nations . This is the case of USA and Israel and many others . USA and Israel were not born as nations and did not grow naturally and do not have any ethical basis. They gathered as thieves gather in the middle of the night , united by the desire to usurp the wealth and the way of life of others .They are not nations but settler states who have no succor nor sustenance from the creator. They grew on the genocide of others . These entities cannot last very long . It is not that they go through crises like other nations do . They go through existential crises , and their very existence becomes at stake .Their existence is unethical and unnatural . This is happening to Israel right now, and to the USA to a large extent . These usurpers will bring their own end by their own hands. If a righteous nation could have an expression of some sort , Hizbullah of Lebanon is its most eloquent expression . The Resistance is known for its rectitude, and this is its mightiest weapon that no one can curb or undermine . The Resistance holds on to this weapon more than anything else and from it it draws strength and resilience and steadfastness and reigns over the hearts
>>1009409 >the National pure Native Spirit spooky >Nation attacking other Nations spooks attacking other spooks >The Native Nations should present themselves as the owners of the land and the real people of what is called America. nah, land should belong to society as a whole, not some native larpers
>>1009409 >Smugly refuses to support the cause of the French resistance, the Eastern partisans and the Red Army in their struggle to retrieve the land against the Nazi colonialist occupier because "disputes over property ownership are bourgeois :^) strawman >>1009516 >why does this read like a press release? are you actually a human or are you going to address me as a subject that you merely propagandize toward in a contemptuous way? I highly suspect you are a troll or bot at this point. Maybe it's a bot, it is very repetitive and derivative, but there are people that speak or write like that too.
>>1009841 >strawman Natural extension of your argument that the Palestinian struggle to retrieve the land is "not socialist" because it is a "dispute about property ownership" >>1008378
>>1007545 >People here still take sides about a fucking war that happened in the 30s in a country almost nobody here even lives in between factions that no longer even exist Are you talking about the second world war? You'd have to be a literal retard to think it's irrelevant
>>1008452 >It's as if a certain something that happened within the last 200 years made the Europs this way >within the last 200 years The European invasion, usurp, crime and genocide of the Natives started over 500 years ago.
>>1009748 tl;dr I can't bother to read that hodgepodge of buzzwords and drivel
>>1009409 >all these damn spooks And this is why Stirner remains relevant.
>>1008317 >The Native indigenous struggle is not a dead cause. It has been dead since the 1910s. >Natives are still very much alive and very much continue to deal with the consequences of genocide and land theft. What we deal with is being proles. I am not colonized. I am not dealing with genocide or land theft. I was born a prole to prole parents who moved us away from the rez when I was little. I don't want tribal control of the U.S. The tribes are fucking corrupt bureaucrats just like the current government. If anything, they do more harm than the feds. Your struggle is not one that natives share.
>>1009853 Not that anon, but it’s not. Fighting for existence =/= a purely land dispute. Critical support to natives when their treaties are broken, but other than that it’s already a lost cause. The native population is no longer in a state of colonization because they’ve already been colonized.
>>1007513 Stop...emphasizing things like. a. retard.
>>1010110 >>1010159 >Critical support to Palestinians when the Zionists demolish another house/neighborhood and build another settlement in the West Bank, but other than that it’s already a lost cause.
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>>1010057 >It has been dead since the 1910s. Leonard Peltier, one of the longest-held political prisoners on Earth, is a Native imprisoned by USA. The DAPL protests happened just 3 years ago. More than 500 years lasted the Yankee lie and will last more ; and who knows if all this bloodshed witnessed everywhere from Asia to Africa to Southern America is not in order to keep the lie going ? Who knows if all that is being committed everywhere on the planet and the daily atrocities delivered everywhere are not meant to hide the truth about something that once revealed …might change the course of history . In fact if the western establishment does not behave the way it behaves , running this bloody circus and daily carnage , it might not survive for long in its existing character and image. What Big Brother is hiding is something big as Big Brother himself . Big brother is hiding the genocide on which US is founded , the biggest genocide ever that has not ended yet but is targeting Natives wherever Natives are found . The US is nothing but Native land and you can let the names be your guide , let the names and places be your guide to truth. Do not rely only on documents or testimonies or archives or whatever . Listen to the words and identify the place . What do you hear when you hear Massachusetts or Delaware or Wichita or Wyoming or when you say Kentucky or Chesapeake or Illinois or Connecticut and so many other places ? What do you hear when you say Manhattan and Tennessee and Arkansas and Mississippi? What do you hear ? Do you hear the Homo European or you hear the Native Indigenous ? Where do you find yourself upon uttering these names? You find yourself in Native Land is the answer and this is where you are , you are in Native Land . Cheer up for US is Native Land and will remain Native . Enough lies and cheat and deceit . This is all Native from bottom to top and the European is a usurper like the Israeli exactly , a colonizer who owns nothing and has nothing , who stole the land and enslaved the Blacks to work it while he did nothing but trying to convince us of his glory and greatness . This is all but a lie ; because this is Cherokee Land and Pequot Land and Choctaw Land and Lakota and Lenape Land and Narangansset Land and Navajo Land and more than four hundred cultures and nations who populated the place and cultivated the land and hunted their food and named their fields and villages and their rivers and lakes and lived peacefully in tune with life and nature worshiping their Creator . This is Native land and US is a lie , the biggest lie that ever existed in history . And because it is a lie everything that comes from it or relates to it is a lie. US is the first Israel as the pilgrims called it , the first Israel of God . Just listen to the names of these places and the nations who owned the place . Everything else is usurp, crime and genocide.
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>>1010057 >I am not colonized. I am not dealing with genocide or land theft. >Your struggle is not one that natives share. The Native Nations of the New World or what they call –wrongly- the Red Indians of ِ America- had they all lived- would have become billions by now . They would have become billions and filled the place had they lived. The New Continent – discovered by accident-by European Pirate Columbus – sent by his Masters the King and the Queen of Spain at the end of the 15th century to loot India- was NOT empty , it was not populated by a handful of savages half clothed who screamed dancing around some fire as has been pictured by Hollywood. The New continent- at the time Columbus landed – was populated by one of the finest people and finest civilizations. The cities were filled with people and the fields were filled with crops . Life was bustling in the streets and in the fields . There were people there , they were fine people, not looters and criminals like the Europeans . They were civilized like the real Indians like the Sumerians and Assyrians and Phoenicians and Egyptians. People who tried to improve their lives and that of others, who tried to understand . They were Nations , more than 400 languages and cultures who populated the whole continent . People think -wrongly- that these Nations were at war with each other , but no one investigated what kind of wars they fought . They fought, but their wars were a display of power more than anything else . It is after the European looters came that they started having serious differences. Now , where are the billions of Natives who were supposed to fill the new continent? What happened to them ? If you want to know what happened to them just look at Syria and Libya and you will know what happened to them . They were 112 millions all over the continent . In the United States alone they were more than 18.5 millions . What happened to all those ? Something happened to them that reduced their number after 5 centuries to less than 3 millions instead of multiplying they shrank . Hosted by al Mayadeen TV, professor Munir Akash- of the University of Suffolk – considered every non Native resident of the US an illegal immigrant including himself . Maybe he made exceptions of the Black Africans who were brought there by force. The occupation of the New Continent said Akash -on behalf of Europeans- came as a substitute to the third crusade to Arab countries and to Jerusalem that the Europeans failed to launch because of the Ottoman hegemony. Instead, the Europeans- blessed by the Catholic Church and funded by their Spanish majesties headed across the Atlantic where they landed by mistake in the New Continent . What was supposed to happen to Palestine and the Arab World happened to the Americas. And what was to be endured by Arabs was endured by the Natives. It was not too long before the same people who took over the North Continent – after decimating the Natives over many centuries – the same Anglo Saxon Breed which outstood all breeds in war crimes , took over Palestine after defeating the Ottomans and created the usurping entity of Israel and replaced the Native Palestinians who were evicted from their land by hoards of Zionist Jews brought from Europe . Israel is an Anglo Saxon dream that materialized first in US at the hands of the Anglo Saxon settlers before materializing in Palestine . This is why the white settlers who landed in the New Continent at the end of the 16th century took Hebrew names, and called the place the New Israel of God and treated the Natives like Canaanites and sought to exterminate them by various means and replace them and immolate their religion and culture . The Anglo Saxons who took after the Spaniards and resumed the colonization of the New World have been making history for the last 400 years . What has been done to the Natives of the north continent is being repeated everywhere in Africa and Asia and will remain so until the original wrong done to the Natives of America be acknowledged and fixed .. USA is Native land that has been usurped and occupied for more than 400 years like Palestine has been usurped and occupied for so many years. This land needs to be retrieved ; the Native Nations should recover what it theirs for peace to prevail in the world again .
>>1007969 Because most Marxists are latent racists. And this board is full of middle class white burgers who are claim to be super smart but are some of the most brainwashed by US propaganda in history. The Holocaust was bad because it justifies Israel, Manifest Destiny was inevitable historical stepping stone because it’s how the US expanded. Once you see /leftypol/‘s hypocrisy through a white burger lens everything becomes clear.
>>1010230 I love those like you who come to this board of some 500 regular users of this board and tar them with broad unverifiable insults, and then at the same time proselytize here as if they are preaching to benighted heathens who are not woke enough on dying or irrelevant movements over which none of us can influence and control. Not a single time in this thread have you given an actual set of actions that can be taken to raise indigenous or Palestinian people except these hyperbolic mad scenarios that are pure idealism (native americans setting up embassies in Iran? LMAO). The only one who is displaying blatant dichotomous racialist thinking is you, on your insistence on valorizing oppressed brown peoples and then at the same time portraying all people with white skin as demonic. Again, you are either a /pol/ troll who is doing a falseflag to try to raise "race consciousness" by posing as a strawman of a sakaite or radlib. Or you are just a delusional cunt who has read Settlers and now believes he is God's annointed
>>1010199 To some extant, yeah. A lot of that territory they’re never getting back.
feels like schizoposting tbh,he's not addressing any points but has fanatical rants
>>1010259 I love how when this board is pressed in these types of hypocrisies you always try to deflect by casting aspersions about your critic and his intentions. As if the vast majority of workers wouldn’t find it abhorrent to consider indigenous genocide a necessary historical progression, and hypocritical to consider WWII and the holocaust great tragedies.
>>1010284 >I love how when this board yeah, everyone here thinks the same, everyone here has the same opinions fucking kys
>>1010284 The majority of workers don’t base their politics around pearl clutching, no.
>>1010294 >Waaaaa you can’t generalize the board! We’re all special snowflakes. Kek
>>1010280 He’s not. It looks like he’s copy/pasting from some pdf instead of responding.
>>1010296 >Being disturbed by an ideology that seems to justify past genocide is pearl clutching. Genocides who’s historical material legacy continues to oppress indigenous people to this very day. This is coming from a left that would cry of their mocha latte order got screwed up. All you’re a bootlicker for booj that mine billions from native lands.
>>1010298 >I can’t grasp the board culture so I’m going to throw a fit and green text forever instead of actually responding
>>1010298 <NOOO!!! YOU HAVE TO BE NPCs WITH THE SAME OPINIONS!!!! NOOOO, I CAN'T STRAWMAN YOU!!!! NOOOO!!! lmao, kill yourself faggot
>>1010308 >Our politics is a great mystery only known to those that waste their lives here. Haha, I can see your hypocrisy from space.
>>1010307 Your entire politics is based on “muh feels of disgust”. Just go be a liberal already. You’re useless here.
>>1010312 That’s the thing, it’s not even hard to grasp. You’re just fucking lazy
>>1010309 >Nooooo you can’t generalize our politics like we do to literally everyone one of our opponents. Have sex.
>>1010316 >Everyone that disagrees with politics is a EES JAY DOUBLE JEW. C O P E
>>1010326 cope hareder, chinlet faggot
>>1010329 *disagrees with my politics
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>>1010057 >The tribes are fucking corrupt bureaucrats just like the current government. If anything, they do more harm than the feds. The most deadly blow given to the Natives of North America was the creation by the US administration of something called the Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA )that could be compared to something like the Palestinian Authority ,where Natives are represented by Natives that serve the white establishment instead of serving their people , and who have full authority to refute treaties and refuse to implement the US Court Decision to give the Natives full authority over 3% of the land that is reservation land . Even this 3% given to the real owners of the land and of the country , the Natives are not allowed to exploit since the BIA has been bribed into allowing companies to extract the riches of the land allotted to the Native which they did by the full authority given to them as legal representatives. And while these people of the BIA grow fatter and fatter, the Natives on the reservations grow poorer and weaker ,and are left even to starve in a place where not even proper food is found , where there is no work or resources of any sort , the only place where there are no banks, where the only activity allowed is drinking and gambling . It is on purpose that Casinos have been established in reservations and are flourishing and exempted of taxing. Weren’t it for the BIA the Natives could have exploited the resources of the land given to them and improved significantly their condition , but it is not wanted that these Natives get any chance in life, and the BIA makes sure that nothing of this sort happen to the Natives who are their own people and relatives and whom they rejoice to see indulging in all kinds of excesses. The greatest oppression the Natives are suffering from comes from their kith and kin of the Bureau of Indian Affairs that could be the Indian par of the Gulf Cooperation Council or like the Arab League , or more recently like the Military Council or the Transitional Council or the National Council of Istanbul ; an authority totally affiliated to the enemy, and totally representative of the enemy, that is intent on killing its own people and make them subject to deals and bargains and cross over their dead bodies to power and position . This is the great disease that afflicted the Natives , the same disease that have afflicted Palestinians and is afflicting the Arabs now , the Syrians and the Libyans , where Syrians of the National council , and Libyans of the Transitional Council ,and Gulf People of the GCC , and Arabs of the Arab league are respectively set against Syrians and Libyans and Bahrainis and Arabs in general and are buying and selling, and killing and threatening , carrying on perfectly the job assigned by the enemy of their people . If the Native had ever a real enemy it is these people who had delivered them totally to the hands of their oppressor, by exerting enormous pressure on them to surrender their weapons ,and never resort to arms , and follow peaceful negotiations where -helpless and bereft of everything -they will be taken like sheep to be slaughtered . This is what the Bureau of Indian Affairs was determined to achieve : to bring the Natives to the state of helplessness where they will be totally under the mercy of their killer and will be forced to withdraw little by little from the land they own to the place that is reserved for them over which they will have no power whatsoever.
>>1007590 >Funny how you cunts would never say this shit about General Plan Ost or the Holocaust I would, moralist faggot
>>1010329 No, even sjw ground their reasoning in academic fluff. You’re just a liberal, my dude
>>1010323 Oh I gasp it fine, it’s you that just plugging your ears and denying everything which is what you artists usually do. Anyway, back to the OP, why do Marxists consider indigenous genocide historically progressive but the holocaust a tragedy?
>>1010330 Nice projection fat autist.
>>1010339 Oh I see, I guess your ego is safe no that you can safely ignore the OP. You’re totally not deflecting the question like a coward.
>>1010347 *now that you
>>1010341 >why do Marxists consider indigenous genocide historically progressive but the holocaust a tragedy? they don't
>>1010352 You sure about that, because it took 50 posts before any Marxist denied the characterization.
>>1010347 Tell me what I am deflecting against, schizo?
>>1010358 The OP ya raging narcissist.
>>1010354 dude, there is literaly two autists shitting at each other in this thread if you want to have a dispute with marxists, then find real marxist authors
>>1010363 What from the OP? Did you lose your argument again?
>>1010369 I’ve heard more than one Marxist describe colonialism and capitalism as historically progressive in the past. Please stop pretending like this is something pulled from thin air.
>>1010372 I guess you can’t read the OP or the thread.
>>1010375 ok, name that marxist then
>>1010375 Please quit pretending like you actually lurk here and you can differentiate shitposters.
>>1010376 Nah, already read it. I just want to know SPECIFICALLY what you find worth me addressing. You can’t seem to do it because you never cared to begin with. This was all whining, gnashing of teeth, and pearl clutching from the start for you, wasn’t it?
>>1010383 I wasn’t talking about this board. Damn, the left does not revolve around your hug box.
>>1008373 My proposal is for you to kill yourself, disgusting American. Fuck USA
>>1010377 Marx himself said that capitalism was historically necessary. Regardless your modernist view of history implies it.
>>1010395 Then no one can address whatever schizo fantasy you have in your head of a Marxist that you supposedly met, you mental patient.
>>1010402 ok, this is true but it is by no means a defense of native genocide
>>1010394 >I just want to know SPECIFICALLY what you find worth me addressing. And I already stated several times that it’s the question in the OP. But since you’re so fragile you’ve done nothing but spent the entire thread trying to denigrate me instead of addressing the criticism. As if anyone cares about getting approval from you besides your fat autistic friends.
>>1010404 Again with the snowflake defense. Haha stay ass blasted.
>>1010414 There’s more than one question in the OP you dense illiterate. Which one is it?
>>1010410 That’s not what OP said though. Why are Marxists so quick to say indigenous genocide was a historic necessity, but then cry about the Holocaust. Before you accuse me of being pol I think both were historically unnecessary and both are tradegies. This view infos Marxists about things like reparations for blacks, but you never see Marxists speak out against reparations for Jews, which have already been granted. Most Marxist I know support Israel’s right to exist even though it’s a colony through and through.
>>1007513 the part with "historical necessity" is true but nobody says it was "progressive" or "good" i dont remember any marxist author saying that genocide of indigenous people was progressive
>>1010418 If I could crack open your skull, dig out your brain matter, and examine it under a microscope to find this genocidal Marxist living in your head tent free, I would do it. Unfortunately I’m fine with that snowflake living there eternally and can no longer be fucked to bother.
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>>1010057 >Your struggle is not one that natives share. Why this is happening is because it happened before . Why the Syrians are being killed is because they were killed before, and the same goes for the Palestinians and the Iraqis and the Yemenis and the Libyans. They were all killed before. They were killed when the Native Nations were killed in the north continent hundreds of years ago .They were robbed of their land and killed and at their place and over their remains rose America . The Great America. The settlers started from scratch , killed everything and erased everything in order to raise their empire . And they raised their empire on Native land . It was a great success for the predators . No one objected that so many died in order to make room for the settlers and their clients . It was ok that so many died , they were few savages after all that did not deserve to live, while America was America , the land of the great, the dream of so many people . All rushed to seize the land and seize the gold and the wealth and take everything , and people crossed oceans and seas in order to take their share from this land and partake of the loot. All gave their bid and shared in the crime . The US was accepted universally and consecrated, and since then the genocide has not stopped . What we did not know is that the crime was not restricted to the Natives of America, and until now we don’t know and we think it is because of WWI and WWII and because of Islam or because of oil and gas or because of western interests and western hegemony .But it is much simpler than this , it is the original genocide that went unchecked and unpunished that is repeating itself indefinitely ..
>>1010426 Go ahead and play dumb. Done talking to you. Read the OP and make an argument, I don’t want to hear anything else from you.
>>1010456 Of course not, because you just wanted to whine and bitch from the start. Thx for confirming that.
>>1010279 I know who Peltier is. He was a friend of the family. AIM killed cops, so, yeah, he is never getting out. DAPL was cool but futile. Nobody can stop the oil from flowing so long as the dollar reigns. >>1010218 >The Native Nations of the New World or what they call –wrongly- the Red Indians of ِ America- had they all lived- would have become billions by now . They would have become billions and filled the place had they lived. >and sho on and sho on and sho on That has absolutely nothing to do with me or anyone else who is still alive. It is a grudge between dead people over something that happened centuries before we were born. I have never hunted a buffalo across the plains or farmed maize on a chinampa, and the only time I ever fished for salmon I did so with a pole and a spinning lure. I would not even know how to live like my ancestors, and frankly I have never felt compelled to try. I certainly do not feel like I was robbed of the opportunity. Only the delusional LARPers want to actually live in pre-columbian America. Natives now are just North and South Americans with slightly redish skin.
>>1010449 If you say capitalism is a historic necessity then it implies this colonialism is too since it’s so intertwined with it. Please stop with these violent fantasies, we both know you’re a far autist that couldn’t run a mile to save his life, much less over power someone and kill them. You’re just embarrassing yourself. And yes I’ve see Marxists treat indigenous genocide pretty damn clinically, while jumping down the throat of anyone that denies the Holocaust and treating WWII with a lot of reverence. It strikes a lot of people as very chauvinist. Go ahead and accuse me of being an SJW I don’t care.
>>1010464 No, I want an argument, which you are clearly unable to produce. Why the fuck would I whine to you, someone that clearly is hostile to my interests. I want to see if you can reconcile your hypocrisy. You can’t and are reduced to pathetic smear tactics.
>>1010441 >Most Marxist I know support Israel’s right to exist even though it’s a colony through and through lmao, read Finkelstein's "Holocaust Industry" idk if he's marxist but definitely a leftist and is supported by marxist also, most of marxists don't support Israels right to exist
>>1010501 He’s not “most Marxist” mate. And no, Marxists are not know for criticizing Israel. But anarchist are, and OP is saying it has to do with their modernist view of history which makes genocide seem like stepping stones to socialism. Anarchist reject modernist views of history a view these genocides like the rest of workers, as horrific and regressive.
>muh ancestors
>>1010519 >The past doesn’t effect the future, you have no grievances because all those people are dead. *posted from an iPhone 12 while sitting in a 400k house*
>>1010515 >And no, Marxists are not know for criticizing Israel. The PFLP is a Marxist-Leninist faction of the Palestinian resistance totally committed to the dismantlement of the Zionist colonial state and the liberation of Palestine "from the [Jordan] River, to the [Mediterranean] Sea" >>1008260
>>1010490 if you say something is historical necessity, it doesn't mean you agree with it name a single marxist who says native genocide was good >>1010515 >marxists are not known for criticizing existance of israel >literally ignoring all former communist countries >literally all existing communist parties wew dude
>>1010515 >Anarchist reject modernist views of history a view these genocides like the rest of workers, as horrific and regressive. marxists don't say native genocide was progressive,lol
>>1010528 I’ve never even heard of them. And I bet most Marxists haven’t either since I’ve never seen them mentioned ever by any of them. >>1010529 >if you say something is historical necessity, it doesn't mean you agree with it It does though. It’s TINA, (There is no alternative) thinking. >name a single marxist who says native genocide was good It’s implicit when you say it’s necessary for socialism. And as OP said, you never hear Marxists saying that shit about the Holocaust. >marxists are not known for criticizing existance of israel >literally ignoring all former communist countries >literally all existing communist parties I wasn’t aware of this, but it’s certainly not a feature of Marxist discourse now.
>>1010540 Genocide is a feature not a bug of capitalism, if you say capitalism is necessary then you’re saying genocide is too.
>>1010490 Colonialism predates capitalism. One isn’t inherent to the other. Also, saying something like “capitalism was necessary for rapid industrialization” is not saying it’s ethical. The fact that Marxism even exists is evidence that it’s not even by the principles it was built on.
>>1010498 Idk, why do you keep whining to me when you can’t even say what question you want addressed. You really love wasting everyone’s time.
The sad story is that we could have been in an alternative universe in which the American genocide never happen and it would have been super progressive and comfy. In fact, based neopagan Italian bourgeoisie was already in contact with the Americans, but the catholicucks decided to invade the Americas and do imperialism. There's a papal bull that explicitly imply America is propriety of the Church. The hidden history is that the genocide of native Americans, was in fact, a crusade.
>>1010564 Because it was already stated in the OP and I’m not going to play foolish bad faith games with you. Cough up a defense or STFU.
>>1010569 There’s more than a question you dishonest pos. Name the one you want addressed, you snake.
>>1010571 Fuck off, everyone else responding to me understand the topic just fine. Go play smug gotcha games elsewhere.
>>1010576 I understand it just fine too, but I’m not going to address one question just so you can be like “Umm, that’s not actually the one I wanted sweaty”. Give me the question you want, bitch.
>>1010552 >It does though. It’s TINA, (There is no alternative) thinking. no, it doesn't. saying it is necessity isn't the same thing as saying it was good. it's not moral statement >It’s implicit when you say it’s necessary for socialism. And as OP said, you never hear Marxists saying that shit about the Holocaust. we don't say holocaust wasn't historically necessary for socialism because nazism was a reaction against socialism, lol. it's obvious capitalists slaughtered native people because they needed their land not because they were evil. they needed to expand.
>>1010552 >I wasn’t aware of this, but it’s certainly not a feature of Marxist discourse now. lmao, there are nearly no communist parties that support israel
>>1010501 Doesn't Finkelstein support the two-state solution? https://gowans.blog/2016/07/03/the-jewish-colonization-of-palestine-and-the-recalcitrance-of-the-natives/ "There has been much talk of a two-state solution. But what, exactly, are two states a solution to? The proffered answer is that they are a solution to the irreconcilable goals of Zionists, on the one hand, who seek Jewish colonization of all of Palestine, and Palestinians, on the other, who refuse to accept the colonization of their country. The proposed solution, which isn’t a solution at all, but for both parties an unacceptable compromise, is for the Zionists to accept that they can’t have all of Palestine and for the Palestinians to accept they can’t keep all of their country. If we cast this in terms of the German conquest of Poland, we can see that the compromise entailed in the two-state proposal is completely unacceptable. Imagine that in 1939 the international community had called for Germany and the Poles to accept a two-state “solution” by which Germany colonized part of Poland, and the Poles kept another part—a fraction—of their own country. No one would have accepted this, neither the Germans, who were bent on the military conquest of Poland to establish lebensraum—and had the military muscle to achieve their goal—nor the Poles who, quite rightly, would have rejected the proposal outright, as would anyone else in the same circumstances, except under extreme duress, or unless they shared the politics of the invader as, say Petain shared the Nazi’s virulent antipathy to communism and sympathy for the ancient regime, and so accepted a two-state solution for France." ... "The two-state proposal, then, (not a solution—the term solution is a deception to suggest the scheme is workable) was a bad scheme from the very beginning, and has become significantly worse since. With Zionist forces conquering even more of the Palestinians’ country than Resolution 181 foresaw for a Jewish state, two-state exponents now envisioned a Jewish state in the 78 percent of Palestine that Israel controlled, following the armistice which brought the open hostilities of the Arab-Israeli war to a halt. In other words, the armistice line, rather than the frontiers envisioned by the UN, would now form the boundaries of a Jewish state. This, of course, was favorable to the Zionists, who would have a state even larger than the one they were to receive under Resolution 181. But if Palestinians thought that relinquishing 56 percent of their country to Jewish colonizers was unacceptable, how could they possibly be expected to think that ceding 78 percent was acceptable? Poles would hardly think that ceding one percent of their territory to Germany would have been tolerable, let alone 57 percent. The idea that anyone would think they would accept the loss of 78 percent of their country to a colonizing invader would be considered an insult. " ... "It gets worse. Since its 1967 military conquest of the remainder of the Palestinians’ country, Israel has built Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, connecting them by a reticulation of Jewish-only roads. Under the two-state proposal, Israel is expected to insist on including these Jewish “facts on the ground” in any negotiated arrangement, so that whatever state the Palestinians would be allowed to have, would be located on territory making up only a small fraction of their country, and the territory would be non-contiguous, divided by Jewish settlements, and criss-crossed by Jewish-only roads. Can proponents of the two-state proposal sincerely believe their scheme has the merits of pragmatism and achievability? It wasn’t pragmatic and achievable in its implicit form in 1917 under the Balfour Declaration, nor in 1947 in its explicit form in Resolution 181. What, then, makes two-state proponents think that their proposal is more pragmatic and achievable today, now that it asks Palestinians to accept an even smaller minority share of their country than the UN proposal would have given them? The Palestinians have refused to capitulate to the colonization of their country. They will not to live on their knees. They are, accordingly, unremittingly censured by people who have never been colonized, and, to the contrary, are citizens of countries with histories of colonization, which either promised Palestine to the Jews in the first place, which they had no right to do, or participated in dividing up the Middle East into Mandates (thinly disguised colonial possessions) without the slightest regard for the wishes of the natives, or which today furnish the colonizers with the arms and diplomatic backing they require to carry out their project. The major advocate of the two-state proposal, the Diplomatic Quartet, consisting of the United Nations, the United States, the European Union, and Russia, recently issued a report which takes the Palestinians to task for using violence to resist the Jewish colonization of the remaining parts of their country which Israel hasn’t annexed de jure. The Quartet accepts the violence Israel uses and has used to fit its yoke on the Palestinians, but condemns the violence of the Palestinians to throw off the yoke. The political violence of Nazi Germany in conquering Poland in order to colonize it is considered deplorable, and the Polish resistance to German military occupation is seen as heroic and praiseworthy, but the political violence of Zionist forces in conquering Palestine in order to colonize it is accepted, while the Palestinian resistance to Israeli military occupation is labelled as terrorism." ... "On July 1, two Jewish settlers were shot and killed, presumably by Palestinians aggrieved at the creeping Judaization of the West Bank. The settlers were attacked near Al-Khalil (also known by its Hebrew name, Hebron.) [3] This is territory Israel conquered in 1967, and has occupied since. International law prohibits colonization of occupied territory, and the slain settlers lived on the territory illegally. Had Germany colonized Poland, the killing of the Jewish settlers near Al-Khalil would have been tantamount to Polish insurgents (who the Germans would label terrorists) killing German settlers in their country." ... But we can go further. Jews who live on territory conquered from the Palestinians prior to 1967 have settled on land from which Palestinians have been displaced by violence. If it would have been legitimate for Polish resistance fighters to attack German settlers on Polish territory, and is legitimate for Palestinian resistance fighters to attack settlers on Palestinian territory conquered since 1967, it is also legitimate for Palestinian resistance fighters to attack settlers on Palestinian territory conquered prior to 1967. The division of the conquest of Palestine along the armistice line of the Arab-Israeli War, marking territory on one side as legitimately conquered, and territory on the other as illegitimately occupied, is completely arbitrary. Zionists have no legitimate claim to any part of the Palestinians’ country, not the territory conquered before 1967, and not the territory conquered after; not up to the armistice line, and not beyond it. "
>>1010627 yeah, that was a mistake. I wanted to mention him in regard of the reparatioms to Israel
>>1010603 I mean, you could probably argue that a system that needs to expand to the detriment of others is bad by our modern ethical framework as Marxist. But I see your point that at the time they did just see it as necessity.
>>1010501 >>1010627 (me) [CONT.] https://gowans.blog/2016/07/03/the-jewish-colonization-of-palestine-and-the-recalcitrance-of-the-natives/ "As for the two-state solution, well, it is not a solution at all. It is, to the contrary, the very problem it deceptively promises to resolve. The problem—the root cause of decades of violence in Palestine since the Balfour Declaration was promulgated in 1917, is the idea that an alien state can be implanted in the Palestinians’ country, whether as a single state encompassing Palestine in its entirety from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, or alongside a separate Palestinian state constituted on only a fraction of the Palestinians’ land. The two-state “solution”, then, is only a particular form of the problem, namely a settler state enveloping some part—and in all cases, two-state proposals have called for it to envelop the major part—of the Palestinians’ country. The solution to the problem is not two states, but a single, secular, democratic state, in which all citizens, Jews, Muslims, and Christians, are equal, and to which all Palestinian refugees are free to return." https://gowans.blog/2016/07/06/the-two-state-proposal-for-palestine-neither-practical-nor-morally-defensible/ [END]
>>1010603 *we say holokaust wasn't historically necessary for socialism
>>1010398 t. American
>>1007590 >>1007969 >>1010230 https://gowans.blog/2016/04/02/zionism-genocide-and-the-colonial-tradition-in-contemporary-syria/ "To accomplish the goal of “taking out” Syria, Israel, a state established in part as a refuge from anti-Jewish genocidal stirrings in Europe, is colluding with organizations pursuing their own genocidal agenda, as part of a larger neo-colonial project of fostering divisions in the Middle East to weaken forces committed to the project of the self-determination of the region’s indigenous people. Europe’s colonial project frequently relied on genocide to clear the way for the mastery of European settlers over indigenous populations. But it is not genocide itself that ought to agitate our minds, but a fortiori, it is its parent, the colonial tradition, of which Zionism itself is an expression, and of which genocide has been one of its accustomed practices, which deserves our resolute opposition. The greatest holocaust of all was not the one carried out against Jews in Europe by Nazi Germany, though that genocide, accompanied by the systematic extermination of others, including Roma, communists and Slavs, was as obscene as any other. If we have to attach priority to genocide, as is done in capitalizing the anti-Jewish holocaust as the Holocaust, then a much larger genocide, of which there is little discussion if even acknowledgement, has a more compelling claim to this grim mantle—the holocaust of the indigenous people of the Americas. In terms of the number of human beings exterminated, the American Holocaust is perhaps the greatest crime of the European colonial tradition. Hitler’s regime, it should be noted, represented European colonial ideology and practice in its highest form. Its methods were based on those pioneered by Britain, France and the United States to build vast empires, and Belgium and Portugal, to build smaller ones. What made Hitler reprehensible to the Western mind, was not the brutality of his methods and his racist ideology—for these came directly from the European colonial tradition—but his seeking to build a German empire to the East, thus bringing home to Europe the methods and racism the British had used in India, the French in Africa and Indo-China, and the young United States had used to build a continental empire. Hitler said Central and Eastern Europe, including Russia, would be to Germany what the American West was to the United States and India was to Britain. In Discourse on Colonialism, Aime Cesaire remarked that “What (Westerners) cannot forgive Hitler for is not the crime itself…it is the crime against the White man, and the fact that he applied to Europe colonial procedures which had until then been reserved exclusively for the Arabs of Algeria, the ‘coolies’ of India and the ‘uighurs’ of Africa.” [36] Nazism was colonialism let loose on Europeans. Viewed from the perspective of the Nazi’s colonial horrors brought to Europe, Westerners may begin to understand the tantamount colonial horrors and oppressions the West visited upon Arabs and Persians and continues through its Israeli outpost to visit upon the Palestinians, to say nothing of the political character of the practices and ideology which Western governments and their allies follow, even to this day, in the Middle East."
>>1010490 Your fixation on the holocaust palestine and iran indicates to me you are some kind of arab nationalist type with islamic characteristics. More likely its a larp and youre just some teenage white guy who wears keffiyehs to his local falafel shop and thinks he is an authenticTM liberator imitating the PLO glory days
>>1010688 If you were to make a comparison between WW2 Eastern Front and West Asia today, USA, its attack dog Israel and the Saudi GCC puppet regimes would be the Nazis and Axis powers & puppet states while the Islamic Republic of Iran, Hezbollah, the Palestinian factions, Yemen, Syria etc would be the Soviet Union and the Eastern partisans
>>1010705 Ok larper, historical analogies to WWII are extremely cringe. Definitely in line with your rent free fantasies
>I don’t understand what historically progressive means: the thread
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>Stirnerites defending genocide >Idiots saying it was okay because it was historically necessary or some shit Marx and Lenin were both Europeans who were given bad, second-hand information about the United States that painted it as a far more progressive, even revolutionary country than it actually was. The general impression at the time was that North America was hardly populated at all when the Europeans arrived and the conflict with the Native Americans was a largely minor event and heavily played down, and the Europeans were exploring and settling largely empty, unpopulated land.
>>1010705 Ironically in WW2, the Axis powers were the aggressors against the Allies of Poland, France, East Europe and the Soviet Union (the major enemy of the Nazis). But today the US/NATO Allies are the aggressors against the self-described "Axis of Resistance" of Hezbollah, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq and Iran (the major enemy of the US imperialists).
>>1010727 Marx you can say that about maybe but Lenin would have known better.
>>1010727 >Stirnerites defending genocide No one was defending genocide other than bait posters.
>>1010752 Yeah didn't Lenin host a bunch of political conferences with colonized parties/resistance movements that were explicitly anti-colonialist? Like a precursor to the TriContinental of 1966? Baku conference it was called, right?
>>1010727 <idiots saying it was okay nobody said it was okay, you just keep starwmaning people because you are losing the argument >Marx and Lenin were both Europeans who were given bad, second-hand information about the United States so what neither marx nor lenin defended the native genocide
>>1010752 Most works at the time painted the United States as this almost revolutionary egalitarian society. Lenin was more wise to the truth than a lot of people were, (for instance, he denied the United States could have a peaceful transition to communism) but was still duped in the end.
>>1010768 >muh spooks Is just saying <It's okay because morality is stupid lmao >neither marx nor lenin defended the native genocide Well, yes exactly. They had some limited praise for the United States specifically because they weren't aware of what the United States actually was.
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>>1010230 >Because most Marxists are latent racists. No, this board just had a recent influx of /pol/ immigrants because of the /pol/jak meme.
>>1010778 >The treatment of the indigenous population was, of course, at its most frightful in plantation-colonies set up exclusively for the export trade, such as the West Indies, and in rich and well-populated countries, such as Mexico and India, that were given over to plunder. But even in the colonies properly so called [or, settler colonies—in Spanish colono/a means settler] the Christian character of primitive accumulation was not belied. In 1703 those sober exponents of Protestantism, the Puritans of New England by decrees of their assembly set a premium of £40 on every Indian scalp and every captured redskin; in 1720, a premium of £100 was set on every scalp; in 1744, after Massachusetts Bay had proclaimed a certain tribe as rebels, the following prices were laid down: for a male scalp of 12 years and upwards, £100 in new currency, for a male prisoner £105, for women and children prisoners £50, for the scalps of women and children £50. Some decades later, the colonial system took its revenge on the descendants of the pious pilgrim fathers, who had grown seditious in the meantime. At English instigation, and for English money, they were tomahawked by the redskins. The British Parliament proclaimed bloodhounds and scalping as “means that God and Nature had given into its hand.” > Marx, Capital, vol. 1, 917–18;
>>1010774 mask off, /pol/yp you couldn't make more obvious that this thread is a bait
>>1010799 >no u!!! why do you deflect so hard? You seem like a mentally unhinged retard.
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>>1010778 >gets called out for strawmanning. >continues to strawman pottery
>>1010790 Yeah, Marx knew about the conflict with the Native Americans, just not the extent that it occurred.
wh*te people again and again continue to demonstrate that they will always have an innate bias and side with their own people and "country". This thread proves it. Thank goodness i didn't grow up seeing many of you rats when i was little and instead grew up with my own race.
>>1007513 If you think it was either a good or bad thing, you're a moralistic faggot and not a materialist.
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>>1010774 > Malcolm x was right, maybe all races really need to be separate from one another. Got'em
STANDA: Celkem dobrou. Ovšem se Všetatech byla zase zácpa. Osobní potrubní doprava se tak rozmohla, že dnes už jezdí rourou kdejaký halama. Až do Bakova jsem před sebou tlačil křupana v okovaných botách. (Sáhne si na hlavu.) Ještě teď to bolí. OTEC: Hlavně žes nikde nečekal. MATKA: Tatínku, ve Všetatech byla zácpa. Teď to říkal... OTEC: To je jedno, ale hlavně, že nikde nečekal. MATKA (k Standovi): Já mám vždycky strach, že se s někým srazíš. Jezdíš jako divoch… STANDA: Je pravda, že balonový plášť má minimální tření, ale zas to tak dobře netěsní. To bys koukala při pilných jízdách. To má člověk na hlavě široký klobouk a těsní jako píst. Když se s takovým expresním chlapem srazíš, tak tě tejden brní hlava. Zrovna minulou středu: Hučím si to do Trnavy a v Kútech bim ho. Bača v protisměru. Naštěstí ještě nebyl rozjetej. Já měl víc vzduchu, a tak milej bača musel zpátky. OTEC: Přetlačils ho. STANDA: Ale hezky jsme si popovídali. Měli jsme hlavy u sebe… Kampak, povídám. A on: Do Prahy… som chcel. MATKA: A jak se stále máš? OTEC: Jak jde advokacie? STANDA: Tu mi ani nepřipomínej, otče. Koho to vlastně napadlo dát mě na práva? OTEC: To byl matčin nápad. MATKA: I pan učitel Čermák to doporučoval. STANDA: Tak řekněte panu učiteli Čermákovi, že mu za to jeho doporučení pěkně děkuju. To mu klidně řekněte. (Rodiče skočí k věšáku a matka pomáhá otci do kabátu.) OTEC (pro sebe):… že mu Stáníček pěkně děkuje… STANDA: Ať si posílá na práva… (Všimne si, že se rodiče někam chystají.) Kam jdete? MATKA: K Čermákovům. STANDA: Ale ne teď! Až příležitostně. Až ho třeba potkáte. Nebo mu to vůbec neříkejte. Ta vaše ochota mi jde na nervy! OTEC (zase se svléká): A ty nejsi s povoláním advokáta spokojen? MATKA: Vždyť je to tak ušlechtilé zaměstnání pomáhat nevinným, urovnávat spory… STANDA: Jak vy tu žijete! Svět letí dopředu, a co vy? Vyjděte trochu na čerstvý vzduch! Nechte se ovanout tím svěžím… (Rodiče se znovu strojí na cestu.) MATKA: Tatínku, vem si šálu! STANDA: Ale teď ne, až příležitostně! Ano. Ochota hloupost! Jak je mi tu mezi vámi těsno! Poslouchejte mě dobře. Celá Praha chodí v rádiovkách! A co vy? (Sáhne do aktovky pro rádiovky, sám si jednu nasadí a dvě hodí rodičům.) Zkuste si je! MATKA (nasazuje si rádiovku): Tak v tomhle se teď v hlavním městě chodí… OTEC (rovněž v rádiovce): A proč je tady ten pinďourek? STANDA: Anténa, tatínku. Symbol rádiového věku! OTEC (dívá se na matku): Je to nezvyklé… STANDA: Troufli byste si v tom na náměstí? MATKA: Já ne. OTEC: Snad za tmy.
>>1010816 >>1010799 you tried samefagging but you forgot to take off your "sage"
Was ist unser Leben wert, Wenn allein regiert das Schwert Und die ganze Welt zerfällt in toten Sand? Aber das wird nicht geschehn, Denn wir wolln nicht untergehn. Und so rufen wir durch unser deutsches Land: Go home, Ami! Ami, go home! Spalte für den Frieden dein Atom. Sag: Good bye dem Vater Rhein. Rühr nicht an sein Töchterlein – Lorelei – solang du singst, Wird Deutschland sein! Clay und Cloy aus USA Sind für die Etappe da. „Solln die „german boys“ verrecken in dem Sand“. Noch sind hier die Waffen kalt. Doch der Friede wird nicht alt, Hält nicht jeder schützend über ihn die Hand! Go home, Ami! Ami, go home ... Ami, lern die Melodei Von der Jungfrau Lorelei, Die dort oben sitzt und kämmt ihr goldnes Haar. Wer den Kamm ihr bricht entzwei, Bricht sich selbst das G nick dabei. Uralt ist das Märchen, traurig, aber wahr! Go home, Ami! Ami, go home! Laß in Ruh den deutschen Strom! Denn für deinen „Way of Life“ Kriegst du uns ja doch nicht reif. Gruß von Lorchen: „Bon plaisir“ Der Kamm bleibt hier! Ami, hör auf guten Rat: Bleib auf deinem Länggengrad, Denn dein Marshall bringt uns zuviel Kriegsgefahr. Auch der Frieden fordert Kampf. Setz die Kessel unter Dampf. Anker hoch! Das Schiff ahoi! Der Kurs ist klar! Go home, Ami! Ami, go home! Spalte für den Frieden dein Atom. Sag: Good bye dem Vater Rhein. Rühr nicht an sein Töchterlein – Lorelei – solang du singst, Wird Deutschland sein!
>>1010820 no, I've tried your mom in bed she did great
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>>1010820 Not the same person, retard. Keep deflecting pol face, but it's too late. You've been found out. >>1010816 >>1010799
Und weil der Mensch ein Mensch ist, Drum braucht er was zum Essen, bitte sehr! Es macht ihn ein Geschwätz nicht satt, Das schafft kein Essen her. Drum links, zwei, drei! Drum links, zwei, drei! Wo dein Platz, Genosse ist! Reih dich ein, in die Arbeitereinheitsfront, Weil du auch ein Arbeiter bist. Und weil der Mensch ein Mensch ist, Drum braucht er auch Kleider und Schuh! Es macht ihn ein Geschwätz nicht warm Und auch kein Trommeln dazu! Und weil der Mensch ein Mensch ist, Drum hat er Stiefel im Gesicht nicht gern! Er will unter sich keinen Sklaven Sehn und über sich keinen Herrn. Und weil der Prolet ein Prolet ist, Drum wird ihn kein anderer befrein. Es kann die Befreiung der Arbeiter Nur das Werk der Arbeiter sein.>>1010820
Es schreien die NATO-Minister Hört, hört ihr es nicht? Ihr Schreien ist nicht mehr Geflüster Hört, ja hört ihr es nicht? Sie schreien nach Profit ihrer Kriegsindustrie Und rüsten zum Kreuzzug, erneut wie noch nie Ihr Heer steht bereit für die Aggression Gegen dich und die Sowjetunion Arbeiter, Bauern, fester die Waffen Heut' ist das heilige Pflicht Das sind die Verbrecher, Verbrechen beginnen Das heut' ihre Waffe zerbricht Heut' ist der Sozialismus Weltmacht Heut' stehen die Völker nicht mehr allein Drum fester die Einheit, der Kampf wird sich lohnen Dann wird in der Welt immer Frieden sein Drum fester die Einheit, der Kampf wird sich lohnen Dann wird in der Welt immer Frieden sein Es schreien die US-Strategen Hört, hört ihr es nicht? Sie schreien nach neuen Raketen Hört, ja hört ihr es nicht? Vom Rhein wird mit Abschreckungslärm gedroht Mit Superwaffen .... [???] Das ist die moderne Inquisition Gegen dich und die Sowjetunion Arbeiter, Bauern, fester die Waffen Heut' ist das heilige Pflicht Das sind die Verbrecher, Verbrechen beginnen Das heut' ihre Waffe zerbricht Heut' ist der Sozialismus Weltmacht Heut' stehen die Völker nicht mehr allein Drum fester die Einheit, der Kampf wird sich lohnen Dann wird in der Welt immer Frieden sein Drum fester die Einheit, der Kampf wird sich lohnen Dann wird in der Welt immer Frieden sein Aus Washington schreit es Sanktionen Hört, hört ihr es nicht? Embargo, Bestrafungsaktionen Hört, ja hört ihr es nicht? Das alles im Namen der Menschlichkeit Sie sind für Profit zu allem bereit Es rüstet die schwärzeste Reaktion Gegen dich und die Sowjetunion Arbeiter, Bauern, fester die Waffen Heut' ist das heilige Pflicht Das sind die Verbrecher, Verbrechen beginnen Das heut' ihre Waffe zerbricht Heut' ist der Sozialismus Weltmacht Heut' stehen die Völker nicht mehr allein Drum fester die Einheit, der Kampf wird sich lohnen Dann wird in der Welt immer Frieden sein Drum fester die Einheit, der Kampf wird sich lohnen Dann wird in der Welt immer Frieden sein
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>>1010259 >The only one who is displaying blatant dichotomous racialist thinking is you, on your insistence on valorizing oppressed brown peoples and then at the same time portraying all people with white skin as demonic. Racial segregation comes in handy for colonialist usurpers . It works like a screen behind which colonialists can hide their vicious endeavor . . Colonialism is not racial segregation . . The colonialist does not hate the colonized because he is different from him . The colonialist wants to steal and rob and loot and usurp, and it does not matter for him the color and race and ethnic group of those whom he robs . This comes as an effect not a cause . After looting and usurping the colonizer may say i have robbed him because he is Black or Red or Muslim or whatever trying to justify what he did by a sort of physical sociological or cultural or ethnic theory in order to find a justification for what he did that otherwise could never be justified . The truth is that the colonialists like the Anglo Saxons for example behaved towards the Irish the same way they behaved later towards the Native indigenous in the New world. It is the same behavior everywhere and they genocided the Irish who are not racially different from them the same way they genocided the Natives indigenous. They genocided them both and starved them and looted them and killed them and took their land and displaced them and this has not ended yet . The Anglo Saxons practiced well with the Irish, but they excelled with the Native indigenous . They almost totally exterminated the Natives, and it is a clear case of genocide that could not be justified in any way neither by the difference of culture nor of color nor of Religion . It is an an act that is totally alien and has no connection with anything human. This is the United States it is founded on a genocide . The US could hide their crime for a while but how long can a country founded on genocide last? It cannot last long because it defies the laws of ethics and natural law For this reason, there is need for the US to bring up the racial issue regarding the Blacks or Hispanics or Muslims, or the gender issue, or whatever issue because this racial issue comes in handy, and unlike the genocide issue , the US is able to deal with it and handle it and maneuver around it because it is does not bring up the very existence of the United States and the original genocide on which it was raised . Racism has a cure and it is anti Racism or anti Apartheid, unlike genocide that has no cure . Same way, israel is now hiding behind racism and behind racial segregation, and this in order to hide the real issue of occupation and usurp. And the whole BDS endeavor considers israel as a racist state and asks for equal rights to Palestinians rather than seeking liberation from occupation. But this will not do, and the act of genocide committed against entire nations will rock the foundation of both countries : USA and israel , and this has already started . All what we witness in terms of confusion and chaos and indecision at the international level reveals the shaky condition of the two usurping states . Weaker than a spider’s web they have become …
>>1010825 >>1010824 yeah you definitely aren't the same person. Why do wh*tes love talking about moms? is it your incestrous brain at work?
Ёбаный рот этого казино, блядь! Ты кто такой, сука, чтоб это сделать? – Я всегда это делал, когда.. – ВЫ ЧЁ, ДЕБИЛЫ? Вы чё, ебанутые, что ли? Действи.. вы в натуре ебанутые? Эта сидит там, чешет колоду, блядь. Этот стоит, грит: "Я те щас тут тоже раздам".. – Ну посмотрите.. – ЁБ ТВОЮ МАТЬ! У вас дилер есть, чтобы это делать на моих глазах, мудак ёбаный! – Хорошо, будет делать дилер. Раньше это делал всегда я.. – ДЕГЕНЕРАТ ЕБУЧИЙ! Вот пока ты это делал, дебил, ебаная сука, БЛЯДЬ, так все и происходило! – В ВИПе? – ХУИПЕ! – Давай заново.. – Блядь, вы чё, действительно идиоты, что ли, а? Бля, дифиченты какие-то, ёбаный ваш рот, а.. А ты-то чё делаешь? – Они разложены просто в другом порядке.. – ЁБАНЫЙ ТВОЙ РОТ! КАКОГО ХУЯ ОНИ В ДРУГОМ ПОРЯДКЕ РАЗЛОЖЕНЫ? Ты распечатала колоду на моих глазах, БЛЯДЬ! Как они могут быть там разложены в другом порядке?! – В другом! Вот смотрите.. – ЁБАНЫЙ ТВОЙ РОТ, БЛЯДЬ! Вы чё, в киосках их заряжаете?! Сука ёбаная, падла блядская! – Производители карт.. – ТЫ, МУДИЛА ГОРОХОВАЯ! Как заряжен.. Как запечатанная колода может быть в другом порядке нн.. разложена?! Ты, долбоёб ёбаный! – Докажу! докажу! – ТЫ, МУДИЛА ЕБУЧАЯ, ВЫ ВО ЧТО ИГРАЕТЕ, СУКА ЁБАНАЯ, ПАДЛА?! – Вот смотрите.. – Я РОТ ТВОЙ ЕБАЛ! Так вы зззаря.. вы, БЛЯДИ, покупайте карты не в киосках! Вы чё, ебанутые, сука?! – Фабрика в таком их виде.. – ТЫ МУДИЛА! Как может в казино быть колода зааа.. разложена в другом порядке?! Ты чё, бредишь, что ли?! Ёбаный твой рот, а!.. – Так вот и разложены.. – ТЫ ЧЁ, БРЕДИШЬ, СУКА?! – Успокойтесь.. Вот, посмотрите, как они разложены.. – БЛЯДЬ! ДЕГЕНЕРАТИВНОЕ ХУЙЛО! Ты бредишь, что ли?! Ты чё, бредишь, блядь?! Как в казино карты могут быть по-другому разложены?! Ты чё, дурак, блядь? – Если я разложу вот так вот, да?.. – Ёбаный козел! I fuck you, bullshit! SHIT! – Вы специально.. – Я специально! Я щас им расскажу, что вы тут исполняете! Вы чё, дебилы, блядь?! – Как вы хотите?.. – ВЫ ЧЁ, ДЕБИЛЫ, СУКА?! Как в казино в запечатанной пачке может быть разложены по-другому карты?! Вы чё?! – Посмотрите.. – ТЫ, МУДИЛО ГОРОХОВОЕ! Вы их где берете, бляди?! – Покупаем у официальных.. – ВЫ МУДИЛЫ!! Вы чё, е.. блять.. Ёб твою мать, в казино, сука, карты разложены по-другому.. ТЫ ЧЁ, ДУРАК, ЕБАНЫЙ ТВОЙ РОТ, А?! Ты чё, кретин, что ли? – Как вы хотели, скажите мне? Как вы хотите? – Ты, дегенеративный кретин, ты не понимаешь, что ты говоришь вообще! – Что есть, то и говорю.. – Ты говоришь, что в казино в запечатанных колодах карты разложены по-другому?! – Да, смотрите. Туз не на месте..
Kolega Hraběta se ve svém referátu zmínil, že popudem k Cimrmanově arktické cestě byla objednávka živého obrazu pro restauraci Pod Vyšehradem. Už sám fakt, že se známý pražský restauratér obrátil se zakázkou právě na Cimrmana, je výmluvný. Jára Cimrman skutečně patřil k uznávaným mistrům tohoto dnes již zapomenutého žánru. V současné době dožívá toto umění už jen ve formě výjevů na alegorických vozech. Ovšem to nejsou pravé živé obrazy, neboť se pohybují. Jednak vlivem nerovnosti dlažby a jednak dochází k dílčím pohybům uvnitř zobrazeného výjevu: rolník brousí kosu, kapitalista třese měšcem, Pinochet chrastí řetězem... Pravý živý obraz se liší od obrazu na plátně jen tím, že jako materiálu je tu použito živých lidí a reálných předmětů. Živé obrazy tvořily v Cimrmanově době neodmyslitelnou součást probuzeného národního života. Nesměly chybět na žádném plese či sokolských šibřinkách. Jejich obliba tkvěla nepochybně v tom, že se tu mohli umělecky uplatnit i lidé bez jakéhokoli talentu. Měly většinou masový ráz, aby se jich mohlo zúčastnit co nejvíc účinkujících. Někdy byl počet aktérů tak velký, že už nezbyl nikdo, kdo by se na živý obraz díval. Tak tomu bylo např. v pražské Malostranské besedě r. 1904 při výjevu "sokolové vyprovázejí Jana Ámose do vyhnanství". Nebýt policejní patroly, která vstoupila do sálu přilákána podezřelým tichem, nebylo by nikoho, kdo by mohl podat o díle svědectví. Z Cimrmanových velkých živých pláten nutno jmenovat jeho historický triptych "Bitva u Lipan", "Bitva na Bílé hoře" a "Sedláci u Chlumce", uváděný pod souhrnným názvem "Naše slavné prohry". Nekonvenčně, až odvážně pojal živý obraz "Blaničtí rytíři". Ztvárnil v něm ideu, že má-li být dřímající svatováclavské vojsko v budoucnu co platné, musí nutně přezbrojit. Některé Cimrmanovy živé obrazy byly vysloveně komorní. Byly koncipovány pro předvádění v domácnostech jako náplň dlouhých zimních večerů. Musíme si uvědomit, jak se tehdy žilo. Lidé přišli z práce domů, něco pojedli a pak celý večer seděli a koukali do zdi. Televize tehdy ještě nebyla. Cimrmanovy domácí živé obrazy byly jejím předvojem. Autor jich vymyslel nepřeberné množství - někdy pro dvě, většinou však pro jednu osobu. Vaše babičky si možná vzpomenou na taková oblíbená dílka jako např. "Jirásek se dívá do minulosti", "Libuše se dívá do budoucnosti", "Koniáš se dívá do díry". Početnějším rodinám byl určen "Hus před koncilem kostnickým". Početnějším rodinám s krbem "Hus po koncilu kostnickém". Byly mezi nimi i seriály, kupříkladu dvoudílný "Palacký". První díl se jmenoval "Byli jsme před Rakouskem" a druhý "Budeme i po něm".
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>>1010832 Try to find the (you) here buddy. next time maybe be a little more subtle little /pol/lyp
The issue is anti-colonialism, while correct, is an anti-materialistic understanding of history. Well, maybe not the history of colonial America itself, but, rather, how to move forward with it. The people that exist here in America today, while, yes, we benifit off the colonialism of Maniofest Destiny and American Expansionism we have no direct connection to it, or, understanding of it. Not the vast majority of the population. We must and can only work with what we have. You are not doing to be able to decolonize the people who currently live in the Americas with out massive bloodshed and violence of innocent people, frankly who have done nothing wrong themselves. One is not guilty on the mere fact alone of inheriting their place in history. That's why the only choice is to wrest control of the productive forces from the enemy of all working people so that we all may share in the spoils of the common wealth and be free.
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>>1010827 >>1010828 >>1010835 >>1010837 What is this mess? Did we upset /pol/?
>>1010838 not him but this board doesn't have (you)'s
>>1008373 Glowies tries to sage another anticollonialism thread
>>1007606 >There are still people alive who were affected by those events Indigenous peoples in the Americas today are in fact still affected by the colonization. Not just in Gringoland.
>>1007513 Y'all could use some Marxist historiography; read Jairus Banaji's Theory as History
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>>1007513 >Why the fuck does this position exist when it's easy to just...not throw your full backing and support behind arguably the greatest crime committed by the bourgeoisie and their Mercantilist forebears? >Ah yes, history happened this way which is why we must accept it was necessary <Don't worry, comrade, you just happen to have been the blood sacrifice necessary so that capitalism could rule the world and we could try and utterly fail to defeat it anyway Why is it that exterminating the indigenous populace of the Americas was "historically progressive" but the Holocaust and Second World War were not? After all, the Holocaust made fascism and genocide illegitimate in the eyes of most and the Second World War spread communism further than anything else ever had. Whereas the extermination of indigenous Americans was one of the primary inspirations for the Holocaust. If the deaths of the native Americans were justified so that the bourgeoisie would get the grand opportunity to destroy Life on Earth (fuck you, faggot, Marx didn't foresee climate change, sucks to suck, turns out porkies didnt "progress" shit); why wasn't WWII 100% justified, based, and redpilled if it spread communism far and wide?
>>1007513 Stop reddit spacing you faggot. You soypigs should make our job easier and post in a single newline.
>>1010969 Only glowing is /pol/lyps LARPing as anti-colonialist.
Жил-был Николка, самодержец всёй Руси, Хотя на рыло был он малость некрасив, При ём водились караси, При ём плодились пороси, Ну, в общем, было чего выпить-закусить. Но в феврале ево маненечко тово, Тады всю правду мы узнали про ево, Что он еврейчиков громил, Что он рабочий класс гнобил, Что не глядел он дальше носу своево. Жил-был товарищ Сталин, родный наш отец. Он строил домны, строил ГЭСы, строил ТЭЦ При нём колхозы поднялись, От счастья слезы полились И гитлеризьму наступил при ём п...ц. Но тут кормилец наш негаданно тово Тады всю правду мы узнали про ево, Что он марксизмы нарушал, Что многих жизни порешал, Что в лагеря загнал он всех до одново. Жил-был Микитушка, сам ростиком с аршин, Зато делов уж больно много совершил: При ём пахали целину, При ём летали на Луну, При ем дорвались до сияющих вершин. Но в октябре ево маненечко тово, Тады всю правду мы узнали про ево, Что он Насера наградил, Что он с три хера накрутил, И что свербило вечно в жопе у его.
>>1011911 >Only glowing is /pol/lyps LARPing as anti-colonialist. obviously, the entire thread is full of posts that attempt to downplay fascist atrocities.
>>1011938 >obviously, the entire thread is full of posts that attempt to downplay fascist atrocities. How is this post "downplaying fascist atrocities"? >>1010677 https://gowans.blog/2016/04/02/zionism-genocide-and-the-colonial-tradition-in-contemporary-syria/ "The greatest holocaust of all was not the one carried out against Jews in Europe by Nazi Germany, though that genocide, accompanied by the systematic extermination of others, including Roma, communists and Slavs, was as obscene as any other. If we have to attach priority to genocide, as is done in capitalizing the anti-Jewish holocaust as the Holocaust, then a much larger genocide, of which there is little discussion if even acknowledgement, has a more compelling claim to this grim mantle—the holocaust of the indigenous people of the Americas. In terms of the number of human beings exterminated, the American Holocaust is perhaps the greatest crime of the European colonial tradition.
Nobody says it's le based or desirable you retard theorlet, just that it's a historical event that furthered the development of capitalism. "Progressive" in this sense doesn't imply that it's good or positive, just that it furtheedr the progression from a previous mode of production to capitalism. Literally no principled communist "supports" the genocide of the native Americans; rather, they simply acknowledge the role it played in the historical process. Stop sperging out over this retarded strawman and actually learn what we mean when we say the word "progressive".
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>>1007545 >And yet people here constantly do it all positions are just cope. "Genociding the Americans was necessary and progressive" this is white cope. Nothing more nothing less, and making a thread about it is actually legitimizing it more by entertaining their opinion as if it has any argumentative value.
>>1012624 This. Part of the issue is also that it was inevitable. Marx himself talked at length about how capital necessarily smashes all less advanced social formations with which it comes into contact. Industrialized capitalism not only has a hunger for resources and labour like no other society in history, but has the most effective possible tools to satisfy that hunger through conquest. The communist view on the genocide of the Americas should be that it was inevitable and necessary in the strict sense of sweeping away an outclassed mode of production that could never hope to compete with it, and thereby laid the groundwork of eventual liberation through socialism. This of course should be paired with the strongest possible condemnation of present day colonialism and racism against indigenous people and vigorous struggle for indigenous liberation.
>>1007513 Morality doesn't exists, why is mass murder wrong how do you explain this to a nihilist. I have a friend that says this
>>1007513 >Why the fuck does this position exist when it's easy to just...not throw your full backing and support behind arguably the greatest crime committed by the bourgeoisie and their Mercantilist forebears? People tend to find it easier to ignore atrocities than acknowledge them. It's one reason genocide denial happens and why known-to-be-harmful things can be perpetuated instead of ceased as soon as people realize it's bad.
>people still responding to glowie bait Cringe

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