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🦅 /USApol/ 🗽 United States Politics 🏈 Anonymous 05/26/2020 (Tue) 19:10:57 No. 531727
Edited last time by zulveta on 10/23/2020 (Fri) 21:59:24.
>>1034615 And by the way, the only country with that gift is the U.S. because they can always pay their debt with U.S.
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>>1034611 No comrade you must live For the revolution
>>1034612 >That's it, i'm gonna kill myself over vooting ?, just abstain from the electoral circus if it gives you suicidal thoughts.
>>1034598 >What other than taxes services the sovereign debt? One single button: Money printer go brrrrrr
>>1034350 Is she a centrist or what? I thought the majority hated her and wanted a pro-abortion one.
>>1034612 >Rightoids use "austerity" to "protect" the currency Exactly. Taxes are crucial to making fiat money function. >so people can save money and it is not printed like crazy by the central banks This is actually a bad thing, as it disincentivizes productive investment, and incentivizes rentierism. That's why everyone switched to inflationary silver and then fiat currencies, because that was the only way to stop constant massive depressions that plagued economies in the 1800s. >>1034615 That's actually not necessary to fully exploit the powers of monetary sovereignty that MMT outlines, and I never implied it was. All that's needed is to avoid using inflation to pay down debts to people who don't pay taxes to you. But as long as you're mentioning "one worldwide single currency so countries can take loans over the same currency", that wouldn't necessarily require eliminating national currencies. Embedded PDF related. >>1034618 Nope, lots of other countries do, because they don't have massive foreign-denominated expenditures either.
>>1034585 >That's not the same thing as productivity/output. Its interlinked to the concept in this instance because of the economic functions of automation. >The US is at present in a transitional state from the former back to the latter. No, the US is on a path to collapse as a hegemony, in the same way the Cold War era UK was before the US usurped them. >Stop lying to yourself, you already know that hasn't been true by any measure since at least the '00s. Lel, ok liberal. >Literally everywhere, from Europe, to the US, to Russia, to China, to Africa Russia, China, and Africa didn't even have unionization until the late 1800s to early 1900s because there wasn't even industry. And most of them only got gains as a result of revolution. The US had substantial victories in the late 1800's but they quickly trailed off because there was no militant arm to consolidate and protect these victories, and Europe experienced the same from the 1960's until the 80's. This is just a completely untrue understanding of union action and how it has interplayed with the growth of industrial capitalism, and that is coming from an IWW member. >No it didn't, it hit like a tidal wave in the early '70s, with the '80s basically being a mopup operation Also when the US was in a terminal decline with staglation and the revisionism of the soviet union. Aka, definite decline. >And in no small part thanks to China's betrayal of the working class. The USSR would have collapsed either way, the flaws were deeply ingrained in the USSR's founding and nobody had tried to challenge them since Stalin. >Tariffs started eating away at trade's share of economic activity by the 1880s, stagnating it globally and in some countries (such as the US) actually causing them to shrink immediately. Migrant quotas then closed off supplies of cheap labor in the early 1900s, and the entire "globalized" system yielded to the demands of organized labor. Thats not even sensical to the economic system of the time - cheap labor was something that wasn't closed off by migrant labor, it was promoted by migrant labor everywhere, including in the US, where they would be used as a force for development, until there was enough development to export them and replace them with the national population. The US is the most infamous from their treatment of the Irish in building the national railways, likewise for the Chinese on the East coast. These people were hardly ever unionized, and unions that tried to organize them (like the IWW) were derided for it. And that was when there was still any kind of leeway given to labor organization, when you reached deeper past the 40's the US government went from just cracking down on minority unions to all unions, and union power has been precipitously declining ever since, until a recent resurgence circa 2018. >Holy hell, what do you imagine the republican revolutions, labor parties, unions, and networks of syndicalist coops, came from? A vanguard party operating from a variety of angles including both the minority proletarian population but also Left SRs who largely courted the majority peasant population with socdems which represented inner-city managerial types? You know that there was precious little industrialization in the USSR? The same was true elsewhere, Maoists organized an alliance of the proletariat and the peasantry, Ho Chi Mihn largely organized the peasantry and advocated for proletarianization because it was the path for national liberation, Castro did much the same, ect. For most ML states, there was very little in the way of union power just because there was very little in the way of national industrial production. >Remember, the primary force responsible for the USSR's creation was a giant network of unions and coops in Petrograd! ... the Worker's Soviet was not representative of even a plurality of Russia lmao, there is a reason why there was such a massive political alliance between the Bolsheviks and the Left SRs. Which this liberalization I'm talking about is supposed to change. ... except the current processes are not challenging the USD or the current marketplace? They are economic changes which are clearly politically orientated, because the dissolution of the USD as the international currency is not something which is forced, but rather emergent out of the collapsing conditions of the US empire. >Only if they swallow the neolib doctrine that's gripped the USA's ruling class And the neolib doctrine of the USSR lmao literally every country, communist or capitalist, has done this opening of their currency to certain international trade because it is a way to more easily facilitate trade like it.
>>1034501 >MMT: money printer go brrr, and if inflation gets too high, taxes go brrr This works for commanding national labor-power. It will not work for Chinese labor, because then foreign currency dumping goes brrr. ⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⣶⣶⣶⣶⣶⡦⣀ ⠀⠀⢰⣾⣟⠟⠻⡿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⡄ ⠀⣴⣷⣿⢋⣀⠀⠈⣪⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢰⣶⣶⣆ ⢰⣿⣿⡟⣾⣿⣷⠈⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿⡟⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⠀⣀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⡏ ⢸⣿⣿⠁⣿⣿⣿⠀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⡀⢰⣾⣶⣶⡀⣜⣿⡟⢸⣿⣿⣣⢰⣾⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣾⣿⣿⡇ ⠈⠉⠉⢸⣿⣿⣿⣼⣿⣿⣿⠏⠁⠀⣴⣶⡶⡀⢤⣿⣿⠇⢸⢿⣿⣷⣹⢿⣿⡇⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿⢿⣿⢤⣶⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⡇ ⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣯⣄⠀⠀⢿⣿⡿⡟⣼⣿⣿⠀⠀⣿⣿⣷⣿⠉⢻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢿⠀⠉⠛⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿ ⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⡿⠛⢫⣿⣿⣿⣵⠀⢸⣿⣿⣸⣷⢫⣿⡣⡸⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢻⣿⣿ ⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣧⣶⣵⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⢸⣿⣷⣿⡟⠀⠈⠉⢹⣿⣿⣿⡏⠀⠀⠀⢸⢿⣿⣿⡅⠀⠰⣿⣿⡆⢄⣤⣄⠀⢸⢿⡝ ⠀⠀⠀⠈⣹⣭⣿⠝⢹⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⣿⣿⣿⣟⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠿⣻⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠉⠁⠀⠀⠙⠛⠁⠈⣾⣿⡇⢀⣉⣁ ⠀⠀⠀⣰⣽⡿⠁⠀⡸⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⢻⣿⡿⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿ ⠀⠀⠀⢸⣷⠉⠀⣀⢿⣿⣿⡝⠀⠀⠈⠚⠛⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣀⣤⣔⣶⣿⣿⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢵⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠁ ⠀⠀⠀⠈⢟⣷⣾⣿⣿⣿⡿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣠⣶⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠿⠟⠛⠉⠉⠁⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⠀⠀⠙⢽⣧ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠑⠛⠛⠊⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣔⣮⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢄⣠⣶⡿⣿⣿⣿⢿⢦⠀⢀⣿ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⠯⠛⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢰⡿⡻⠋⠉⠀⣼⡿⠿⠁⣠⣻⡿ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⣮⣿⣿⣿⠯⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣏⡀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣤⣴⢝⠯⠋ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⠿⠿⠊⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⠿⢿⣿⣿⡻⠿⠿⠛⠁ ⠀
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>>1034620 Some day, comrade, some day.
>>1034644 >the economic functions of automation Which neolibs shunned in favor of higher profitability from undeveloped economies, fulfilling the dual purpose of devastating unions in the developed world. >in the same way the Cold War era UK was UK was a silly little island with a colonial empire, USA is an entire continent. We aren't going anywhere unless we go full Feuding States Period. >liberal <muh state economy dengoid <not even something arguable like muh commanding heights, but straight up falsehoods about gdp/employment shares <calling anyone else a lib >because there wasn't even industry Yes, industrialization and subsequent development of organized labor consciousness is crucial to socialism. This is basic stuff. >as a result of revolution And how could that happen? Decades of organization beforehand. >they quickly trailed off because there was no militant arm to consolidate and protect these victories Unions all around the world, including in the US & Europe, produced continuous escalating labor actions up to outright revolutions, which even when defeated still gave steadily accumulating concessions. >staglation Completely fake, just as phony as the OPEC oil crisis. It was all executed as part of a scheme by neolibs to coup power. >it was promoted by migrant labor everywhere That's exactly what I said. Quotas put a stop to that by stopping migration, just as tariffs stopped offshoring. As both trade and migration decreased, union power burgeoned thanks to its stronger bargaining position. >These people were hardly ever unionized In no small part due to being scabbed by the next crop off the boats, until quotas were imposed, and organizing them became much more effective. >was not representative of even a plurality of Russia I didn't say it was. I did say, however, that it was absolutely vital to the USSR's foundation, and that it took decades of reformism to create. >the current processes are not challenging the USD or the current marketplace? Because liberalization is still at an early phase. Proposed future liberalization is already set to extend this. >And the neolib doctrine of the USSR lmao lmao indeed, RIP. >because it is a way to more easily facilitate trade like it A way, yes. But not the only way. Read the PDF in the post just above yours, there's a better solution. >>1034648 That's what tariffs are for
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>>1034407 With the depression and Corona I think people are sick of the trump show and want the faggot off their T.V. I honestly can't blame them, were about to see another Obama blow out were the democrats get all three branches and proceed to do nothing with it.
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Ameribros...
>>1034709 Carbs is how the Empire will fall. The Dialectic truly finds its way in mysterious ways.
>>1034693 Nobody expects Biden to do anything, there won't be any great disappointment, just a sea of "Apolitics" across the board. It'll be like the 1990's but instead o good times it'll be hell.
>>1034709 Blame the corn and sugar industries. They paid off the FDA to let them put their shit in EVERYTHING.
>>1034174 There was one retard who made and spread a fake tweet about homeless people robbing CHAZ's food stocks in its early days.
>>1034688 >Which neolibs shunned in favor of higher profitability from undeveloped economies not totally - they still implemented it through Fordism on industrial production to lower the power of unions in the 1st world in vital industry they couldn't cut away. >wah you called me liberal lmao at the very least your understanding of the development of leftism across the last 150 years is severely lacking in thinking that it was even majority unionized, the entire orthodoxy of Marx-Leninism was itself a major shift in the conception of how revolution could be achieved away from industrial unionism as the revolutionary body and to the vanguard party leading the multi-front struggle. This is why orgs like the IWW got left behind, they only advocated for industrial struggle and outright banned electoral struggle, whereas the Bolsheviks engaged in both. Likewise applies to China, there was a long retreat from socialist policies, but Xi and co. is a return to leftist form and is re-implementing stuff like aspects of the Iron Rice bowl to build a political alliance with the rural citizenship (and by extension, the Maoists, who hold most power in universities and rural holdouts). But since you've no understanding of the political situation of China, you deride any attempt to expand their sphere of influence as imperialism or just being a neo-US, when it's more like claiming that the USSR's intervention in Afghanistan is the same as the US' war in Iraq. >Yes, industrialization and subsequent development of organized labor consciousness is crucial to socialism. This is basic stuff. ...which those countries didn't have lmao, so they had to develop political power via alternative channels. >And how could that happen? Decades of organization beforehand. In what? The unions that couldn't exist yet? No, there was no organization in unions to any great majority capacity of these movements, it largely came down to the organization of the non-industrialized peasantry in an alliance with the minority of the proletariat and aspects of the state which defected, such as the military and other bodies. The political basis of Marx-Leninist states were very removed from industrial unionism, or else they wouldn't have been called Marx-Leninist, they would have just been called Syndicalist. >Unions all around the world, including in the US & Europe, produced continuous escalating labor actions up to outright revolutions, which even when defeated still gave steadily accumulating concessions. Where? Blair Mountain was cool but didn't win concessions. The miner's strikes under Thatcher didn't gain any concessions. And what few concessions were gained, were quickly wiped away. Because, again, there was no greater organization of labor as a political cause in most of these countries. >Completely fake, just as phony as the OPEC oil crisis. It was all executed as part of a scheme by neolibs to coup power. ...which was why there was also massive civil unrest in the USSR as the economy grinded to a halt, or were those paid actors? Were the defections among the member states of the Warsaw Pact just CIA plants, or was it a comprehensive failing of an international socialist project which had frozen its own progression into communism because of too overt of an adherence to orthodoxy which was gradually failing and the purging of innovative bodies and ideas like OGAS and others which left them nothing but a constantly decaying system? >Quotas put a stop to that by stopping migration, just as tariffs stopped offshoring Migration never stopped, it only got increasingly large across time in most all developed countries. Nor has offshoring ever really ended, all of these things have just continued on with new forms as a way to make a stop-gap for capitalism. >In no small part due to being scabbed by the next crop off the boats, until quotas were imposed, and organizing them became much more effective. Again, quotas were never meaningful. Illegal immigration was just a way to maintain rapid influx of migrants while depriving them of even more rights and making them harder to unionize. >I didn't say it was. I did say, however, that it was absolutely vital to the USSR's foundation, and that it took decades of reformism to create. Only vital insofar as it was the national project to spread industrialization. As for its actual political pull in the Russian state, it was less than a minority, it was statistically insignificant - otherwise, the Worker's Soviet would have never been made as a concession. >Because liberalization is still at an early phase. Proposed future liberalization is already set to extend this. Ah yes, just like how the liberals of the 80s said that China would collapse and liberalize by the 00s. And the liberals of the 00s said they would collapse and liberalize by the 20s. >lmao indeed, RIP. <the period of when they abandoned international relations with other socialist states is when they had the policies of massive trade with other socialist states >A way, yes. But not the only way. Read the PDF in the post just above yours, there's a better solution. I'm sure your super snowflake labor vouchers or whatever would be practical but in reality the flexibility of having open currency in the market means a lot more than having some ideologically pure system. The Soviets realized it and used it to great effect to smuggle arms and ammo wherever, and the PRC will as well.
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>>1034693 >>1034717 I'm personally more sanguine about this. Obviously Trump would keep more libs from falling back asleep, but I don't think a Biden win would actually be able to piece back together the illusion shattered by Trump. No matter how the election ends up, I don' think there's any going back.
>>1034735 I've seen more people get more "apolitical" as time goes on, there isn't even the desire to change everything. The American citizen's spirit is dead, they don't care about anything anymore. We're basically United Kingdom levels of apathy here.
>>1034739 Suicidal apathy. The void calls.
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wat maen
>>1034755 >screenshot of a twitter post of a screenshot of a hookbook post of a meme
>>1034755 Is it truly possible to combat right-wing disinfo when they all exist in fucking schizo world?
>>1034764 >Is it truly possible to combat right-wing disinfo when they all exist in fucking schizo world? You can open a portal that leads out of schizo world and show it to them.
>>1034759 Posted on an Albanian image board.
>>1034772 What would that even look like? Any evidence shown to them is just automatically filed under "part of the conspiracy".
>>1034764 You become even crazier than them. That's how I win all of my arguments against /pol/lacks.
>>1034774 Rmember the Nightmare vision goggles meme?
>>1034764 Don't care. All I'm seeing is liberalism eating itself.
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>>1034774 >What would that even look like? Any evidence shown to them is just automatically filed under "part of the conspiracy". They have to go trough the portal before they can look at evidence. You have to rebuild their cognition stack so they can process evidence.
>>1034800 Okay, and how do you do that?
>>1034739 except unlike the UK we have a corrupt gentocracy
>>1034775 >You become even crazier than them. That's what I did to my reactionary soccdem father when he started blaming Covid on the Chinese repeatedly. I went full "manufactured in a CIA lab and spread during the wuhan military games". Now he reverted to "the Chinese may be free of Covid for now, but it can return there any time!".
https://twitter.com/ASE/status/1319818684005756928 >>1034803 yeah you're right, we're even worse. Still I guess my thesis about people being apolitical is wrong due to all these younguns early voting.
>>1034805 Any campaign reliant on the youth vote has failed since the amendment, see 1972 it'll be a drop in the water, those 3 states are still close
>>1034709 behold dialectics diabetics are in motion
>>1034805 I see reports that Trump is winning Gusanoland big time, is it real?
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>>1034828 Is that Biden's son?
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>>1034733 >Fordism on industrial production to lower the power of unions In specific industries, but that's not how automation works economy-wide. Higher productivity corresponds to higher bargaining power for labor, because it cuts consumer prices, in turn increasing demand for both production and employment. >entire orthodoxy of Marx-Leninism was itself a major shift in the conception of how revolution could be achieved No, it was bog standard Marxist DiaMat, except for the dubious "innovation" of embalming underground cells during peacetime as "democratic centralism". >outright banned electoral struggle Not quite accurate. The IWW banned official union involvement with political activity, but allowed members to do so. Further, many other unions of the same era were highly involved in parliamentary activity just like the Bolsheviks, and of course this was part of a wider debate that continued from decades earlier and continued long after that raged across different tendencies of unions, Marxists, anarchists, and pretty much every other form of radical leftism. >there was a long retreat from socialist policies Understatement >which those countries didn't have Until around the same time as they began developing political power, much of it nurtured among the nascant proletariat. >The unions that couldn't exist yet? Unions existed in Russia immediately on legalization in 1905, even before that massive industrial strikes were organized back to the 1870s. >it largely came down to the organization of the non-industrialized peasantry No, that was the SRs. In fact this failure of the Bolsheviks came to be the source of all their later woes. >what few concessions were gained, were quickly wiped away Most of the concessions from that era are still here. Legal strikes, unions, bankruptcy, 40-hour workweek, minimum wage, child labor, pensions, etc., The decay at present mostly effects post-WWII reforms. >USSR as the economy grinded to a halt You were talking stagflation, which was the excuse used to target the West's Keynesianism and other such practices. Warsaw Pact's problems in the '70s were a completely different ball of wax. >Migration never stopped It did stop. In the US for instance, it plummeted to 1/20th its rate in the early 1900s. >Nor has offshoring ever really ended It did. Trade as a share of GDP in the 1950s was half that of 1900. >Illegal immigration Has never been statistically significant >its actual political pull in the Russian state The Petrograd Soviet WAS the Russian state >just like how the liberals of the 80s said that China would collapse and liberalize by the 00s <implying it didn't >labor vouchers or whatever Bancor wouldn't be vouchers, they'd be a transactional clearing system, similar to what is already used for most other international stuff like postal delivery and telecommunications.
>>1034828 What an astounding stockpile of naked pictures this man had of himself, in quantity and content.
>>1034735 This is why I'll probably end up voting for Biden, there really is no going back to the pre-2016 status quo; Biden is its shambling corpse. I think the Trump administration and its base of support have real potential to establish a new, possibly fascist status quo while the decrepit neoliberalism of Biden is both unwilling and unable to do this. Biden won't be able to help normal libs go back to sleep when they're unemployed and facing eviction, although the media will desperately work to make this happen. My decision on this isn't based on one of the candidates being a "lesser-evil", it's based on the social forces the 2 candidates represent and their ability to establish a new status quo for capitalism; liberalism can't save capitalism anymore.
>>1034887 Bull-Moose when?
Wtf I love Hunter now BIDEN 2020
>>1034887 This is a pretty good point, but I don't think either party has any real actual will to do anything, unless a whole bunch of white zoomers actually turn out to be fascist in disguise, I just can't see it happening either way.
>>1034887 >I think the Trump administration and its base of support have real potential to establish a new, possibly fascist status quo I think this is: 1. Unlikely either way 2. More likely as a reaction to a Biden re consolidation crackdown than under the flailing final years of Trump

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