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Former Black Panther says a horizontal organization is better Anonymous 10/19/2020 (Mon) 12:43:13 No. 1013548 [Reply] [Last]
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I think horizontal movements are useful in the short term, but the HK and gilet jaunes protests are a good example of how mobilization must turn into concrete organizations otherwise you get coopted by rightoids a la HK or face extreme fizzle. Here's an article written by Hong Cucks detailing how the limits of a horizontal movement allowed pro-Trump and pro-Western retards to become the biggest voices of their movement. https://lausan.hk/2020/facing-down-the-hong-kong-protests-right-wing-turn/
>>1013548 People really need to learn more about the black anarchist tradition that emerged in the wake of the BPP, from the 1980s-Present Day.
>>1013583 >Most ML start out as Anarchist and switch over to ML cause they find Anarchist theory lacks answers for questions that ML theory does answer. Such as?
I wish Eddie Conway would get away from the Real News already, that show has gone completely to shit since they ousted Paul Jay.
>>1015731 How to not immediately collapse in the face of pressure, the fact that even in "leaderless" systems, there is always an implicit group that has more power over others even if it's just subtle.

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/leftybritpol/ - TIER 3 TARQUINISM edition Anonymous 10/14/2020 (Wed) 23:59:33 No. 998916 [Reply] [Last]
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>>1015972 deport boris johnson
>>1015969 being anti immigrant literally doesn't count when it's a fucking septic and a trot one at that
>>1016125 >>1016125 >>1016125 we're all in here
>>1014134 >Blue Labour Just saying, but their motto was 2/3 that of Vichy France's...
>>1014134 >>1016903 Blue Labour and simps are Vichy personified, a pointless concession made torwards the enemy. This is why I never trust self avowed ‘social conservative’ or ‘working class’ leftists.

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Thoughts on worker cooperatives? Anonymous 10/18/2020 (Sun) 18:39:32 No. 1012282 [Reply] [Last]
Sometimes people ask me "You know, this socialism you're talking about sounds nice and all, but can you point to any instance where it's actually worked in practice?" and I honestly sometimes have trouble giving them a good answer. However, I have found that worker cooperatives are a good example of socialism in action. Here's some facts about worker coops: >According to an analysis of all businesses in Uruguay between 1997–2009, worker cooperatives have a 29% smaller chance of closure after controlling for variables such as industry.[6] In Italy, worker owned cooperatives that have been created by workers buying a business when it's facing a closure or put up to sale have a 3 year survival rate of 87%, compared to 48% of all Italian businesses.[7] A 2012 study of Spanish and French worker cooperatives found that they “have been more resilient than conventional enterprises during the economic crisis."[8] In France, the three year survival rate of worker cooperatives is 80%-90%, compared to the 66% overall survival rate for all businesses.[9] During the 2008 economic crisis, the number of workers in worker owned cooperatives in France increased by 4.2%, while employment in other businesses decreased by 0.7%.[10] > 2006 study found that wages on co-ops pay in Italy were 15 to 16 percent lower than those that capitalist firms paid on average, and were more volatile, while employment was more stable. After controlling for variables, such as schooling, age, gender, occupation, industry, location, firm-size, user cost of capital, fixed costs, and deviations in its real sales, this changed to 14 percent. The authors suggest this is due to worker cooperatives being more likely than capitalist firms to cut wages instead of laying off employees during periods of economic difficulty.[11] A study looking at all firms in Uruguay concluded that when controlling for variables such as industry, firm size, gender, age and tenure, workers employed in a worker-managed firm earn 3 percent higher wages compared with similar workers employed in the conventional firms. However, this wage premium declines significantly with increasing pay and becomes negative for top earners.[12] According to research by Virginie Perotin, which looked at two decades worth of international data, the tendency for greater wage flexibility and employment stability helps explain why some research observes higher and others lower pay in worker cooperatives relative to conventional businesses.[13] A study by The Democracy Collaborative found that in the US, worker cooperatives can increase worker incomes by 70 to 80 percent.[14] >According to Virginie Perotin's research which looked at two decades worth of international data, worker cooperatives are more productive than conventional businesses.[13] Another 1987 study of worker cooperatives in Italy, the UK, and France found “positive” relationships with productivity. It also found that worker cooperatives do not become less productive as they get larger. A 1995 study of worker cooperatives in the timber industry in Washington, USA found that “co-ops are more efficient than the principal conventional firms by between 6 and 14 percent”.[18] >According to a study drawing on a questionnaire from the population of the Italian province of Trento, worker cooperatives are the only form of enterprise that fosters social trust between employees.[19] A survey conducted in Seoul suggests that in conventional firms, employees become less committed to their job as their work becomes more demanding; however, this was not the case in worker cooperatives.[20] In the US, home health aides in worker cooperatives were significantly more satisfied with their jobs than in other agencies.[21] One 1995 study from the US also indicates that “employees who embrace an increased influence and participation in workplace decisions also reported greater job satisfaction”[22] and a 2011 study in France found that worker-owned businesses “had a positive effect on workers’ job satisfaction.”[23] One 2019 study indicates that “the impact on the happiness workers is generally positive”.[24] A 2012 study of three Italian towns of similar demographics, income, and geography found that the town with the most worker cooperatives had: >Better mental and physical health, and longer lives, with fewer strokes and heart attacks. >Children were less likely to skip school and skipped school for shorter periods of time. >Less crime, including less domestic violence and greater feelings of safety. >Higher rates of ‘social participation’ (joining clubs and charities; giving blood; voting). >Perception of a more positive society, more supportive personal networks, and more trust in the government.[25][a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative <TL;DR: Research has shown that worker coops are more less likely to fail, provide more stable employment, have less pay inequality, are just as if not more productive, and produce better worker well-being than private firms. So what do you think of worker cooperatives? Do you think they are a goal leftists should strive for, at least short-term? Do you think labor unions should seek to turn their workplaces into cooperatives?
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>>1013149 Make the government and government services co-operatives too.
Still nobody has named actually existing socialism without co-ops
Socialism is the revolutionary transformation of society from wage slavery to free disposable time for the vast majority. It has nothing to do with cooperatives.
>>1014609 Do you think that cooperatives could be useful while transitioning?
>>1012282 Bandaids for capitalism

USSR was socialist Anonymous 10/07/2020 (Wed) 06:04:32 No. 963468 [Reply] [Last]
Leftcoms always peddle the same crap about USSR but rarely seem to actually respond to rebuttals. So instead of waiting for the next "Heh, does anyone else commodity production" thread, how about we turn the argument around. USSR was socialist If you don't believe so, then respond to this: <Commodity production (CP from here on) existed in such a marginal form that it can practically be ignored. It is true that CP did exist. It was most prevalent in the Stalin era, when the collective farms were still dominant over state farms and artels (coop industries) still existed. However by the 1960's, the later were squashed and the former were declining year by year. Even if you are extremely strict about your definition of socialism, then it is still undeniable that USSR at worst was rapidly moving towards it. <All other goods apart from the agri-produce of collective farms was distributed for consumption Currency indeed existed, but it did not act as traditional money. Consumption was purely dictated by production. As all those who lived in USSR can attest, the problem was never that you couldn't afford something, but that there was a shortage of it. Currency was there only to act as a measure of accounting. Even though it didn't act 1 to 1 as the Marx's labour tokens, it acted in mostly the same way. Exchangeability of rubles can be criticized, but again, having the currency was not a guarantee of getting goods as it is under capitalism. <Participation in global traded is hardly CP Trading should be treated not as a capitalistic practice, but as an alternative way of producing needed goods. USSR wasn't fully self-sustainable, thus it needed to get some goods from import. And these goods later would be distributed for consumption. Hence, once abstracted, the production of trading goods is merely a production method for said goods. <Internationalism USSR was not in a place where it could have fought global capitalism head on. To do so would have been suicide. The best strategy would have been to wait until the global market system starts to collapse. All USSR really had to do was hold itself together. Also, there is no reason why its no longer socialism if the rest of the world isn't such as well. Also arguably USSR was too internationalist. It might have been safer for it to stay out of international revolutionary affairs more in order to stay on better terms with the US.

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>>985961 >Read the link I posted about the USSR's economic model. Sorry mate, your sources are all outdated. We in russia have a first hand accounts of how soviet economy worked "on the ground" not on paper. If you think this shit worked on a profit motive you're fucking retarded, reformers kinda wanted to make it work on a profit motive, but it crashed and burned in the process lmao >By not using money or wage-labor to produce commodities how can there be wage labor when there's no unemployment and a constant shortage of labor? how can there be commodity production when enterprises cannot sell and buy at their will? does commodity production is every production that accounts for consumer demand? >At most it means that the "planning" system was only semi-functional oh, I recognize this retarded leftcom argument that if some enterprises overaccomplish their plans targets it means there's no real planning they really think you can formalize everything in a plan, that plan is not a simplification of reality, and approximation is not a viable method >Marx specifically states that labor-certificates do not circulate You keep repeating this not circulate not circulate like a broken dogmatic record, but what is the fucking difference again? you "create" labor money when you pay people for their work, and you "destroy" money when they buy goods. Guess what retard? you still need to keep balance of payments somewhere >AFAIK, Khrushchev was in favor of using computers and centralized methods of economic development

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>>986986 >You keep repeating this not circulate not circulate like a broken dogmatic record, but what is the fucking difference again? you "create" labor money when you pay people for their work, and you "destroy" money when they buy goods. Guess what retard? you still need to keep balance of payments somewhere Profit emerges from circulating money.
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>>985961 when you straight up lie... who does this help? what if someone was actually stupid enough to believe you? disgrace

Anonymous 07/02/2020 (Thu) 10:35:03 No. 660833 [Reply] [Last]
Stalin: >ruled for 25 years over a territory of 22,402,200 km2 >population under his rule: 150million in 1927 - 196million before WW2 >average population number under his rule: 173 000 000 >3.3 million excess deaths under his rule (executions, gulags, etc. not counting the holo and the domor) >math: 173,000,000 / 3,300,000 = 52.42 Every 52th citizen died under Stalin. >Time And Territory Adjusted Excess Deaths (TATAED - a term I just made up, measured in metric units of "horror") >math: (every citizen dieded + time) * horror constant [100,000] / territory = (25+52) * 100,000 / 22,402,200 = 0.3437 TATAED: 0.34 horror, or 34 centihorror Anarchist Catalonia: >(un)ruled for 3 whole years over a territory of 32,108 km2 >average population under their (un)rule: 2.8million >excess deaths (executions, gulags, etc.) between 38000 and 72344, average: 55000 >math: 2,800,000 / 55,000 = 50.9 Every 51th citizen died under anarchism.

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>>991832 >This is not a serious thread. Excuse me comrade Every thread on /leftypol/ is serios bidness
Legends never die
>>991839 Nice meme, I'm adding it to my collection
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>>661390 Jaque Chirac looks like my father combined with my mother's father.

Anonymous 10/14/2020 (Wed) 22:30:12 No. 998541 [Reply] [Last]
Name me egoist philosophers that are downright cruel.
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just about 90% on the internet is an egoist
>>1011255 >fascist focus on individual strength and beauty Are you retarded?
>>1011255 >junger >cruel
The egoist who doesn't love. That is the answer.

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Real life Nazbol(-ism) Anonymous 10/19/2020 (Mon) 11:30:54 No. 1013421 [Reply] [Last]
Post examples of real life NAZBOL >Fascist governments advocated resolution of domestic class conflict within a nation in order to secure national solidarity.[214] This would be done through the state mediating relations between the classes (contrary to the views of classical liberal-inspired capitalists).[215] While fascism was opposed to domestic class conflict, it was held that bourgeois-proletarian conflict existed primarily in national conflict between proletarian nations versus bourgeois nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Economy >Li Dazhao, one of the founders of the Chinese Communist Party, identified China as a whole as a proletarian nation and the white races as the world ruling class.[8] Later Maoist movements, such as the Maoist Internationalist Movement, have also used the term to refer to oppressed nations of the Third World in contrast to bourgeois (First World) nations.[9] In the 1970s, the Maoist Revolutionary Communist Party, USA used the term "dispersed proletarian nation of a new type" to refer exclusively to African-Americans as a nation of mostly wage laborers and industrial workers (with no significant black bourgeoisie or peasantry as in other nations), dispersed across the territory of the United States.[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletarian_nation#Use_in_Maoism
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>>1014805 >>1014880 >cult of personality Stalin despised the cult of personality created around him, and in fact acted against attempts to overstate his importance in political matters. He actively prevented factories being dedicated to him in particular, and would try to stop praise offered to him during meetings to ensure those who deserved it received that acknowledgment instead. >muh strong families with many children There was no real way to get around this given WWII. Are you implying that the population should have been incentivised to have even lower then average replacement rates in response? >removal of gays I'll acknowledge this as a mistake, even if the law itself was written with pedastry in mind, because I don't doubt it was very well used against law abiding gay men as well. However, this does not make him a fascist, especially given the time period, in which nearly every country had laws prohibiting homosexuality. I'm not pretending the USSR was above such follies. >after foundation of israel became an antisemite This is just blatantly untrue. If you are referring to the "doctors plot", this was not anti-semitic, its just that many of the doctors happended to be Jewish. Jews throughout the USSR and who served in the government were untouched, and Stalin made no such attempt to descriminate against them.
>>1014914 Wrong thread
>>1014909 If I recall correctly, Stalin banned the publishing of the names of the doctors because so many of them were Jewish and he did not want the people to take vigilante actions against Jews
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Surprised no one has yet mentioned ethnocacerists, UPP and Antauro Humala. It's a peruvian party led by pic related named Antauro Humala. He is currently in jail for a failed uprising. Most people see them as regular left wing because of their economic project which includes nationalization of the industry and reversing privatizations. They are very nationalist. They see the andean race as an oppresed race with hidden potential. Xenofobic (specially towards venezuelans), revanchist (They are very vocal about invading Chile to recover lost land). They also place heavy focus on having a strong military, mandatory for anyone not having a job. UPP (Unión por el Perú) is their party and they actually have seats in congress.
>>1014805 > muh strong families with many children What's wrong with natalism, cultural Marxist? >after foundation of israel became an antisemite Stalin,like any good man was anti-zionist, not anti-semite

is it possible Shaytan 10/20/2020 (Tue) 05:10:14 No. 1014653 [Reply] [Last]
Can you be a marxist-leninist-maoist-leftcommunist-dengist but hate marx, lenin, mao, bordiga, and deng?
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>>1014817 try actually engaging the arguments presented instead of showing off a strawman you pull out of your hurt ass
>>1014794 >I can agree with someone that babies shouldn't be tossed out windows despite them personally being terrible in character. The problem is that the scope of "babies shouldn't be tossed out of windows" is way much smaller than the broader philosophy of those mentioned above.
>>1014817 >The UK, France, Germany, Spain and Austria aren't empires anymore >Pic related. They aren't just as the size of the U.S. imperial power.
>>1014817 Yes he came up with that but it's not a whole new "ism". It's just Marxist analysis of monopoly capitalism. Also I disagree with >The UK, France, Germany, Spain and Austria aren't empires anymore UK, France and Germany at the least definitely are neo-colonial empires.
>>1014653 Can I just be a communist?

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Hi /leftypol/ Anonymous 10/16/2020 (Fri) 16:47:29 No. 1005305 [Reply] [Last]
Hi everyone. I am a /pol/ user. I am curious about learning more about your ideology. Try to convince me to see as you see, please. Show me your redpills.
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>>1005388 It isn't a "gotcha" so much as it's bait. No amount of screeching "Land Back!" is going to necessarily change what's been done to that land or its people. For example: slave labor has a not-so subtle tendency to suppress wages. This fact was what made many working class whites in the southern United States grow sympathetic to abolition in the years leading up to the Civil War. Sending slaves back to West Africa made about as much sense then as deporting immigrants back to Mexico does now. If you are a capitalist wanting to maintain the current rate of profit or a communist wanting a more egalitarian society, it is pointlessly vindictive and not economical to do so.
>>1014498 Fascists/'national socialists' (same thing) don't hate capitalism, they love it. They are the enforcers that correct the capitalist system if workers rights/social freedoms/inflation or whatever gets too far out of line. Fascists are all charlatans and/or violent psychopaths. Communists want people to live together peacefully and happily, that's why traditionally communists and fascists are diametrically opposed, communists genuinely want a better world, fascists genuinely want a worse one, liberals/conservatives don't care either way so they just sit in the middle while feathering their nests.
>>1014498 >"Rich Jews" is comparable to the bourgeoisie existing as an entire class, despite the focus on rich Jews ignoring the entirety of the rest of the bourgeoisie as a class and the Nazis mostly killing proletarian Jews as opposed to bourgeoisie ones (who were easily able to leave or pay them off) Ask me how I know you get your politics from memes and infographics rather then actual research.
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>>1014576 Interesting image, thanks for posting. I've learned some new things. However, two things I'd like to point out are that I vaguely recall reading a quote form Mein Kampf stating his support for labour unions in protecting workers from abuse. And although he ultimately seemed to have went against unions it's only fair to point out that the state-operated German Labour Front took their place with quite a lot popular support from the workers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Labour_Front Also this quote is from one of the sources in the image you posted >National Socialism did promote equality among Germans who passed their racist criteria, and submitted the individual to the will of the state, but did so as a right-wing racial movement which sought a nation of healthy Aryans living in a thousand year Reich, which would be achieved through war. In Nazi theory, a new, unified class was to be formed instead of religious, political and class divides, but this was to be done by rejecting ideologies such as liberalism, capitalism, and socialism, and instead pursue a different idea, of the Volksgemeinschaft (people’s community), built on war and race, ‘blood and soil’, and German heritage. Race was to be the heart of Nazism, as opposed to class-focused socialism.​ Fascists and Nazis weren't the same, please see pic related. Anyway, yeah you make a good point about Hitler sucking the oligarchy's dick and I'll have to look into it more. In the end it's not like talking about ancient history is even relevant to anything that goes on today. Maybe you agree with me when I say that, for example, both sides that are out fighting each other on the streets in America right now are absolutely retarded and lack any sort of meaningful direction. It makes me cringe.

Anonymous 10/19/2020 (Mon) 13:16:35 No. 1013598 [Reply] [Last]
Question for Anarchists that hate soldiers and veterans: How do you intend to overthrow Capitalism without military support?
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>>1013623 >We are fully capable of forming decentralized militaries with elected commanders to defend against larger aggressors what reality is this based in btw?
>>1014164 >>1014167 epic double post because the server shit itself
>>1013623 >because our understanding of imperialism goes far beyond what Lenin wrote Any marxist worth their salt knows that Lenin's description of imperialism isn't the end be all, but rather a starting point for critique. I personally haven't read any explicitly anarchist texts on anti-imperialism that can't be reduced to whining about "unjust hierarchies"—although I have been meaning to read Kotoku Shusui.
>>1013992 Based.
>>1013623 >soviet veterans in afghanistan in the same light as american veterans in afghanistan. Just there to export ideology and fund fundamentalist sects Ok shithead, I bet you think the Red Army = Wehrmacht too.


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