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/cybersoc/ critical edition Comrade 04/15/2020 (Wed) 07:28:15 No. 1063
ITT we post links and pdfs to critical or constructive takes on Cockshott and cybersocialism, as well as works or authors who wrote in the fields of cybernetics, systems theory, or operational research in general. >>>/leftypol/438911 >>>/leftypol/438923 >>>/edu/850
>>1065 Wew, somebody really marked the FUCK out of that book before it was scanned
>>1063 Good thread you got here. Finally found my home here and now I will primarily post here.
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Is there really an advantage to centralizing a cybernetic system? We have so much processing power now, wouldn't it make more sense to have multiple competing models generate different plans and then use some kind of political system to reconcile the differences? Surely there will always be weaknesses and the different approaches would result in mistakes averaging out?
>>1073 I don't know if there is an advantage to centralizing a cybernetic system. Cybernetic systems are in a sense decentralized by definition. The question of decentralization needs to be answered in more than one area though. Do we want centralization in regards to economic planning? Do we want centralization in regards to party structure? Do we want centralization in regards to the state structure? What about proletarian intelligence agencies? I think you mean in terms of economic planning, but I don't think that is necessarily the most pressing issue. Cockshott and Beer have started us on the path of how we can model economic systems and implement these models for economic planning. This is an important question no doubt, but I would also like to try and model political formations, and the relationship between the economy and politics. Niklas Luhman's theory of law might be useful here which is why I linked some of his work (not the stuff on law but collection of essays on self-reference). It's kind of hard to find some of his stuff.
>>1075 worked for me, kinda. every page is a different chapter o.O
>>1074 I mean in the sense that the plan is formulated within democratic centralism, per Cockshott's proposed system as I think it's supposed to be. I will look into the stuff posted ITT, but I thought I would raise the question since it's a major point of contention within the far left.
Gonna try to make an effort post here at least every other day so the thread doesn't die, as I know >>>/edu/ is a pretty slow board. In any case have some more books lol. These are related to Beer's VSM though, but written in a slightly more updated and less idiosyncratic style. You should still read Beer et. al of course.
Really wishing the Watch Thread function was working right about now.
>>1078 >>1079 >>1080 Lit! /edu/ is a pretty slow board so I think we should be able to keep it alive.
>>1077 I think there are a couple different takes you could have on that. I don't exactly think Cockshott's framing is coherent as it relates to that question, and I'm not really sure if he fully grasps what democratic centralism means, at least as I understand it. MLs will probably disagree with me, but I think there is a distinction between centralization as it relates to the vanguard, and centralization as it relates to the state that he is missing. This gets into a major sectarian issue in interpreting Lenin: is democratic centralism meant strictly for the vanguard, or is it also a principle that the workers state is supposed to follow? Or put a different way, is the vanguard supposed to retain control of the workers state after the revolution? I think this distinction between vanguard and workers state is important, but some might not agree. Whether you read Cockshott's conception of centralization as coherent or not is going to depend on that to a large degree.
>>1063 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-96kJSFFVI A scientific defense of the LTV. I am skeptical of his model of planning, but for this alone he is extremely based IMO.
bump more pls
>>1345 I'll see if I can find something interesting. The project that inspired this thread is on the backburner rn in favor of >>882 but it is broadly related so I'll be contributing more to this thread in the future
Bumping this thread because brainlets on leftypol don't know why their Cockshott threads are being bumplocked
>>1064 Is there a transcript of this? A question for you cybersocs from someone who admittedly doesn't know a lot about cyber socialism: Who chooses/elects/trains the people who build, write and maintain these cybernetic planning systems and accompanying algorithms?
>>1073 >We have so much processing power now, wouldn't it make more sense to have multiple competing models generate different plans and then use some kind of political system to reconcile the differences? This is exactly what Cockshott proposes my man.
Khozraschet concepts can be grouped based on relation of these concepts to: 1) commodity production under socialism 2) economic interests, material stimulation and accountability 3) isolation of economic units 4) autonomy of economic units 5) relationship with the owner of the means of production below is a Morphological Box of the soviet concepts of khozraschet an asterisk indicates cases when the specified concept does not express an attitude to the above concepts 1) relation to the commodity production under socialism a) commodity production is compatible with socialism; b) there is an autonomous turnover of funds, both current and fixed, so business units must operate in the mode of self-financing and self-sufficiency; c) let's assume autonomous turnover of working capital only - business units must operate in self-financing mode; d) commodity production under socialism is limited, the law of value is fully or almost completely controlled by the state - cost indicators are necessary for accounting and monitoring efficiency; 2) relation to economic interests and material stimulation and accountability a) in acts of exchange, business units and economic agents are guided by their own interests, which may or may not coincide with the interests of society; b) financial reward or punishment depends on the performance of tasks set by the higher organization; c) the cost parameters, the money is used for the generalized calculation of labor costs; d) * 3) relation to isolation of economic units a) there is an economic isolation of economic units due to the social division of labor; b) there is no objective need for economic isolation of economic units under socialism; c) * 4) relation to autonomy of economic units a) the task of an economic unit is to track effective demand - decisions on production planning, pricing, development, labor organization and wages are made by economic units independently; b) the task of an economic unit is to track demand and perform planned tasks set from above for certain cost indicators, such as profit, profitability, labor productivity growth, and so on, while prices are set centrally; c) an economic unit must meet the set targets for a number of cost indicators, for the production of main types of products, capital investments and new equipment, as well as for a number of indicators that characterize the technical level of production and product quality; d) only operational and production independence is allowed in order to reduce production costs when implementing a plan that fully covers the entire production and economic activity of an economic unit; e) * 5) relationship with the owner of the means of production a) an economic unit may be the owner of all or part of the means of production assigned to it; b) an economic unit owns the means of production, paying rent for them to the owner (society), amortization remains in the possession of the economic unit; c) an economic unit owns the means of production and pays the owner rent, and the rent for fixed assets includes interest and amortization; d) the economic unit does not own the means of production, but only uses them, the rent is paid and in the case of fixed assets includes amortization; e) the means of production are provided free of charge and may be withdrawn at the discretion of the owner or his agent; f) * This Morphological Box contains 1799 different concepts of Khozraschet. Not all of these definitions and concepts are logically justified (so,naturally, there are correlations between 4 and 5 variables), but we will not argue that the logically unsubstantiated definitions and concepts that fall into this box were not proposed by someone at the time. Some of the concepts and definitions listed above correspond to actual forms of organization of the socialist economy and proposals for their improvement. It is easy to see that the possible values of variables, with the exception of the "*" value, are ordered. For variable 1, the transition from the value "a" to the value "d" means, as it were, a "decrease in commodification" of the concept of khozraschet; for variable 2, the transition from the value "a" to the value "c" means a decrease in the mismatch of economic interests of various economic units and economic agents, the value "c" corresponds, in particular, to the view that the economic interests of all participants in social reproduction are the same; for a variable 3 transition from "a" to "b" means less need for the economic feasibility of the participants of social reproduction; for variable 4 the transition from "a" to "d" corresponds to the reduction of autonomy of economic units; for variable 5 the transition from values "a" to the value "e" means descending fullness of the function of ownership. Below are particular ordered systems of interest from this Morphological Box aaaab - "full khozraschet" caabc - "khozraschet of the 20s" bbaeb - "self-sufficiency and self-financing" cbacc - "khozraschet of the 1965 reform" dcade - "khozraschet of the 30s-50s" Let's make some explanations. Transition from aaaaa to the dcbde is a reduction of the "commodification" of the concept of khozraschet: the system dcbde corresponds to the administrative controls and uses value indicators only as accounting indicators, practically it is a natural economy in value garments; the aaaaa system corresponds to unlimited by administrative methods commodity economy under socialism. It may seem that any system ****a falls out of the many forms of organization of the national economy under socialism, since the variable "relations with the owner..." here takes the value: "an economic unit can be the owner of the means of production" - does this situation not correspond to private ownership of the means of production? In the general case of commodity production, this possibility is not excluded; in the particular case of socialist commodity production, this situation corresponds to the existence of many forms of public property. Some confusion may be caused by the fact that in the table "full khozrashet" turned out to be "more complete" than the "khozraschet of the 20s". The fact is that the khozraschet of the NEP period assumed independence of economic units - of Trusts, mainly in the management of working capital, while decisions on the management of fixed assets were usually made by the councils of the national economy; in addition, although the Trusts were focused on maximizing profits, profits were withdrawn almost entirely to the state budget and local budgets, so that the Trust had at its disposal up to 10% of the profits directed to a strictly targeted Fund for improving the life of workers and employees - to the Fund for improving the life of workers, and not to the bonus Fund; direct material interest of the Trust collective in maximizing profits, as a rule, was not assumed. Khozraschet of the aaaaa type is the most complete, the types of khozraschet that are close to aaaaa are called full khozraschet. Khozraschet of the dcbde type is the least complete, it is almost a subsistence economy, in which value indicators are used for accounting purposes. Types of khozraschet that are close to dcbde are called formal khozraschet - it corresponds to the accounting concept of khozraschet. Now, what kind of khozraschet is socialist?
>>6064 >Khozraschet Curious what's this term in English and what's It's etymology?


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