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Anonymous 11/19/2020 (Thu) 10:06:19 No. 13049
When I say Holodomor you say sorry. Holodomor
Fuck kulaks
Sorry
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never happened
>>13049 lets do it again
I'm sorry!
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>>13049 Sorry but it never happened
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>>13078 Would you stand in front of this statue and tell it to the Ukrainian people's faces?
>>13080 no, because ukraiuighurs will freak out and kill me. truth hurts.
You’re welcome
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>>13049 Cry harder!
>>13069 Coming from the nigga that advocated expropriating the kulaks before anyone else did lmao
>>13080 YES! In case those Nazi bootlickers tried to lynch me, I could run pretty fast. There are videos of Irishmen literally filming themselves saying "up the ra" towards Anglo crowds and escaping the angry mob. We are not cowards like Nazis, who constantly hide their true views.
>>13088 Thoes irishmen are quite based. Link?
>>13056 >>13050 Stalin: >Kulak is whoever who has surplus seed when the season is over and a healthy cow where you can't feel the ribs. Spengler: >Socialism is just capitalism for the poor. Me: >Yeah, but with extra steps of misguided jealousy.
>>13088 >1932-33 >NSDAP are just rising to power >has no foreign policy power >none at all >6-7 years left to the Molotov-Ribbentrop-pact >that no one can imagine in the early 30s >none at all >fast foward some decades >ukrainians are now collectively regarded by some peoples as nazis, therefore it was right to starve them >because there's no reason to even understand why a lot of soviet citizens regarded the nazi invaders as liberators from communism, nothing in my 150 years of academic studies says why they did, therefore it was right to starve them in 1932-33 so that there would be less of them to collaborate with the nazis in 10 years
>>13098 >Stalin made the clouds stop raining >Fascism didn’t exist in 1931 >The urban workers should’ve just starved bro >And the whole of the other soviet people who dealt with this famine but were not Ukrainian <THOSE FILTHY SLAVIC RAT MEN STEALING MUH CULTRUEEEWEEE OH SORRY, SO SORRY, FILTHY RUSSIAN UNTERMENSCH FILTH <<Wait what do you mean “the leader of the USSR immediately after Stalin was Ukrainian”?
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>>13084 >>13088 >>13100 Nothing personell st*linist
>>13100 "You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." t. Al Capone "Kind words are borgerouis. Where is my gun?" t. Stalin Thing is, they already had a famine in USSR in 1921. So just some 10 years after one could assume that the soviet authorities should be much more careful. Nope, because then they wouldn't be soviet. Or even russian. Remember the Khodynka Tragedy where 1389 people was crushed to death during coronation festivites of Nicholas II. The russian are caught in a vicious cycle. The less the government care about people, the less people care about the goverment and people. And so on.
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>>13112 Hmmm I wonder what was going on in 1921 that might explain things? Do you think life is a Star Wars movie?
>>13112 >Thing is, they already had a famine in USSR in 1921. So just some 10 years after one could assume that the soviet authorities should be much more careful. More importantly, why was there a famine in 1921? Could it have been kulaks hoarding grain? If Stalin diverted grain away from the Ukraine to the proletariat, I suspect that it was a bit of payback for the kulaks starving people to raise grain prices during the Civil Wars.
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>>13114 >>13127 >I don't like the economic laws of supply and demand >therefore I don't have to abide to them FEELS > REALS I think it's time for you to step off poor Tigger. Thing is, if you want to run agriculture trough a GOSPLAN, you need a map as large as the agricultural area. If you don't give farmers a minimum of independence, you will cause famine. Simple as. And if you think that farmers must be curbed because they can go full VGH BOURG while you on the other hand tenderly cares for the SVPER BOVRG institution the Bolshoi, then you've gone full soviet.
SORRY!
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>>13163 Does this word salad make sense in /pol/speak?
>>13163 >Bro dont you realize the bolsheviks could have just pulled bread from their assholes in the middle of the largest civil war in history?
>>13176 >the gommies promised peace, bread land, its their fault the clouds didnt rain! this is realz over feelz guys!!!!!!!!!
>>13098 >ukrainians are now collectively regarded by some peoples as nazis, therefore it was right to starve them Some Ukrainians now after the collapse of the Soviet Union have been "taught" that communism was bad and that fascism is good. It makes sense, since anti-communist propaganda is obviously going to go up when capitalism is present. Also, out of those particular Ukrainians, many are young (aka not ex-Soviet), and some are being paid to be fascists. As an ex-Soviet Republic, it's natural that right wing organizations would fund anti-Soviet propaganda there. Meanwhile, back in the 30s fascists existed in many countries already, particularly those geographically close to Germany, and they were Nazi sympathizers; they were traitors to their people who wanted to be dominated by Nazi Germany, and often even killed their innocent fellow countrymen. You have literally no proof that even half of all Soviets or even just Ukrainians wanted out of socialism and viewed Nazis as the good guys. How could they, after all the massacres those Nazoids committed against innocent people all over Europe, especially after the killing of thousands of fellow Soviet citizens? Did you even know the Nazi army caused a famine during the Siege of Leningrad in the 40s? Meanwhile, after all the mistakes that were made in the Soviet Union, Soviet-style socialism is still popular among large sectors of the ex-Soviet populace, including Ukraine. Kulaks are not people btw. They actively prevented access to crops and cattle, attacked (even killed) farmers and soldiers who supported the Party and did other acts of sabotage in times of need, which only exacerbated the effects of the drought. Kulak is also not a synonym for "Ukrainian". We don't want to kill all Ukrainians nor do we think they deserved the famine, but we reject the idea of the Holodomeme as a human-made famine/genocide/conspiracy orchestrated by the Communist Party against Ukrainians (why was it supposedly just them who were targeted? other republics were even more affected), therefore we make fun of such propaganda like we do with the supposed Uyghur genocide. Ukrainians are comrades as long as they're not fashoids, and most of them aren't. Also, both Russia and China had been suffering famines chronically for a long time before their communist revolutions. They were both way behind other, fully industrialized countries. The famines stopped entirely under communism although some did happen in the beginning precisely because of the state the countries were in before.
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>>13049 прости((((((
>>13176 Was there a second civil war in 1932-33. >>13191 >Some Ukrainians now after the collapse of the Soviet Union have been "taught" that communism was bad and that fascism is good. Various political thinkers and /leftypol/: >"Heey. These bad ecomic conditions may be fertile soil for fascism. Maybe we should make sure that people aren't destitute." Only /leftypol/: >"A famine that makes you think that fascism is better? Sorry, that is just false concsciousness."
>>13579 bruh this aint difficult famine during civil war = because of civil war famine during 1932-33 = because of bad harvest how would fascism fix the lack of rain? Of course if Ukraine would be taught that communism is bad, the communists are no longer in charge so you (the capitalist opposition) are going to use that to your advantage. Wouldnt that just make sense? Heck do you blame capitalism for the breadlines during the Dust Bowl?
>>13191 >We don't want to kill all Ukrainians nor do we think they deserved the famine, but we reject the idea of the Holodomeme as a human-made famine/genocide/conspiracy orchestrated by the Communist Party against Ukrainians (why was it supposedly just them who were targeted? other republics were even more affected), therefore we make fun of such propaganda like we do with the supposed Uyghur genocide. Ukrainians are comrades as long as they're not fashoids, and most of them aren't. There's still such a thing as criminal negligence. In theory the gay men of the western world could have brought the HIV epidemic to a halt by changing sexual habits. They didn't. But that still made the slow government response to it acts of criminal negligence. And still. There was no civil war in USSR 1932-33. And you're not winning me on the uyghur question. I've seen the coy use of it as an insult here. A boring bargain bin version of edgy nazi jokes. It's just a simple matter of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, or something. It's not even "throwing bad money after good". Because in the case of China it's "throwing bad money after bad". There will probably be some kuhnian paradigm collapse when China has done one bad thing too many. But given all these contradictory whitewashes I've seen here, it will take a long time... >Also, both Russia and China had been suffering famines chronically for a long time before their communist revolutions. They were both way behind other, fully industrialized countries. The famines stopped entirely under communism although some did happen in the beginning precisely because of the state the countries were in before. Nope. The Great Leap Foward wasn't in any "beginning" of China. Also, it was something no one had attempted before.
>>13585 >bruh this aint difficult >famine during civil war = because of civil war >famine during 1932-33 = because of bad harvest The Bengal famine of 1943-44 reaped some 2-3 M deaths. After the independence India has suffered many crop failures. But it hasn't had any famines. >how would fascism fix the lack of rain? It wouldn't. The best way to combat famine is to have an independent class of farmers, free pricing, emergency warehousing, a free flow of information and a ruling class that isn't afraid of asking for foreign aid. You can have it in a fascist state. (Only that I doubt that it would run as smoothly as it can in a democracy.) And under Mussolini Italy managed to increase the crop yield. However, the italian fascists had these corporations and fomented a climate of fear. We don't know how Italy would have fared if it didn't ally itself with Germany. But probably better than what happened. So maybe there would have been an italian famine in that timeline. But as long as you regard farmers as hens that lays golden eggs as long as you don't pester them, I'd say that you are halfway home. A fascist Romania would probably have severe famines if the Iron Guard made their own version of Great Leap Foward, or something. They had an endless ineptitude. For instance, their work brigades could show up half-starved at farms and begged for tools "just to help". To create famines, you need bad politics. The black soil of Ukraine is and was fertile. So fertile that the germans had plans to send freight trains full of it to boost Germany's farming. >Of course if Ukraine would be taught that communism is bad, the communists are no longer in charge so you (the capitalist opposition) are going to use that to your advantage. Wouldnt that just make sense? Makes perfect sense. But you really don't have to teach anyone about tragic family pasts. When the USSR called for collectivizations of farms, the farmers thought it was serfdom again. >Heck do you blame capitalism for the breadlines during the Dust Bowl? Nope. But since the US was democratic, they knew that if they didn't hand out bread, their power base would have been smashed.
https://youtu.be/GtpQ2jcWaSA holodomor is a hoax
>The Bengal famine of 1943-44 reaped some 2-3 M deaths. After the independence India has suffered many crop failures. But it hasn't had any famines. India during its food shortages did not avoid famine because of of its free market, rather because of it started rationing and by creating "fair price shops" which controlled the prices at which items could be sold. A lot of support was given for free as "gifts". https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP79-00927A005600010003-9.pdf Now why didnt the Soviet Union import grain? they always export so much why didnt they just either stop exporting or just import grain? Soviet Exports of grain fell immediately during the famine (obviously), however, why would the Kremlin (or le ebil Stalin if you prefer) want to cripple their best export? to teach the wittle Kuwaks a wesson? No, it was because there was a poor harvest, the Soviet Union wasnt producing much to trade with other than raw materials at this time, and the Kulaks did exacerbate the famine, theres no denying that. http://web.mit.edu/17.601/www/grain_exports.htm If the Soviets did not care if their people starved why would they (after finally becoming a super power) actually start importing grain? was the Kremlin less evil in the 80s? Heck the CIA were even thinking about raising prices, and encourage their allies to increase prices, just to make it more difficult for the Soviets https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000637798.pdf https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP08S01350R000200370002-4.pdf >It wouldn't. The famine started under collectivization, sure, the first collectivization in history, while having a bad harvest, while kulaks agitated. If you think the Ukraine ssr required more autonomy and thus the famine would/could have been avoided well youre in luck because i agree, however, it is a ridicilous idea that the country would harm itself to teach a part of the population a lesson, espcially since Khrushchev and Brezhnev succeeded stalin. >Makes perfect sense. I need evidence that the farmers themselves en masse were against collectivization, and i mean the farmers not the kulaks. that being said this collectivization still lead to the famine ending and helped secure food in the future. >Nope. The US had its fair share of quelling insurrection, when they can get away with it, such as the coal miners in really pick anytime, those guys get the short end of the stick every time. i digress, the point is that the soviet union was in a very unstable time, it couldve been easily overthrown if the people had willed it, the western powers would be more than happy to help and insurrection. the soviets' power base was both industrial workers and peasants, these are the people who supported them during the civil war, they were having a relatively similar issue.
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hoLOLdomor
Stalin should have killed more Ukrainians
>>13614 >India during its food shortages did not avoid famine because of of its free market, rather because of it started rationing and by creating "fair price shops" which controlled the prices at which items could be sold. A lot of support was given for free as "gifts". Ok, an emergency measure. The most important thing is democracy where you get a lots of things for free. Such as but not limited to free press, accountability and less fear than in dictatorships. Portugal and Spain had little to none of that. But they had no famines. Therefore the rulers must have had some dedication to ensure the crop yield. >If the Soviets did not care if their people starved why would they (after finally becoming a super power) actually start importing grain? was the Kremlin less evil in the 80s? Yes. Andropov began the Perestrojka and Gorbachev continued it. >Heck the CIA were even thinking about raising prices, and encourage their allies to increase prices, just to make it more difficult for the Soviets Stupid, since it would be a cartel and therefore inherently unstable. All it takes is one selling under the agreed price and it tumbles down. Just like OPEC. Then I'm curious if there's a strict definition of who's a "kulak" that everyone can agree upon.
>>13708 >Ok, an emergency measure. so your claim is the soviets had no emergency measure? also portugal and spain were established super powers, the soviet union came from a country said to be a 100 years behind with cyclical famines every 7-10 years if established countries still struggled with food insecurity, isnt that an argument against their system? like what youre trying to do now? >Yes. Andropov Andropov was considered to be the last of the stalin supporters in the party at the time. he also supported stalins command economy and was going to bring it back and reverse khruschev and brezhnev market liberalizations, if anything wouldnt praising andropov at all kinda hurt your argument, because to me it seems like a "stalinist" learned from a mistake and moved forward, something we all want to do here >Stupid i dont know what you mean by stupid here, you say that they would become a cartel which is unstable and "that all it takes is one selling it under the agreed price" are you saying that if the soviets bought at their current set price they would tumble down anyway? also there is, kulaks are the folks who own the farms, not the people who worked them. so if possible, please provide a source stating that majority of actual farmers did not collectivization and not the folks who owned the farms
>>13586 >There's still such a thing as criminal negligence. Of which there was none. >I've seen the coy use of it as an insult here Because it was used as a wordfilter on /leftypol/ and every time you wrote "nigger" it got changed into uighur. The wordfilter was chosen because there was a lot of talk about the genocide conspiracy theory at the time. Are you that new? >It's just a simple matter of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, or something. It's not even "throwing bad money after good". Because in the case of China it's "throwing bad money after bad". There will probably be some kuhnian paradigm collapse when China has done one bad thing too many. But given all these contradictory whitewashes I've seen here, it will take a long time... I can't make out whether you believe the genocide shit or not. Next time try not to write such an incoherent and vague mess. But no, China isn't genociding anyone and for what fucking reason would they? For what reason would we specifically hate uyghurs? And nice job completely ignoring the actual human factor in the '32 Soviet famine (kulaks' sabotage), the polls where Ukrainians said they were better under communism, the proof that the US uses fascists to spread anti-communist propaganda (and thus people don't just naturally think "fascism is better" when a disaster happens under communism) and the Leningrad famine that was directly caused by the Nazis as well as all the other people that died in the occupied villages because of the Germans' actual negligence. >>13586 >The Great Leap Foward wasn't in any "beginning" of China. >Also, it was something no one had attempted before. So was it or was it not in the beginning of communist China?
>>13596 >After the independence India has suffered many crop failures. But it hasn't had any famines. 1. India as a much better climate than Russia and Ukraine. 2. the Bengal famine happened a few years before the last Soviet famine. 3. Millions died in the '32 Soviet famine, but when not in extreme conditions such as drought and war, virtually all Soviet people were perfectly healthy, because they had food security and free healthcare. One of, if not the main reason for premature deaths in India is malnutrition - whether deaths by starvation (most of which aren't acknowledged), illness or suicide - and nearly 200 MILLION Indians suffer from it right now, which you can bet your ass is made worse during events like the pandemic, only barely eating enough to stay alive. In the capitalist shithole that is India, thousands die from poverty related causes every single year, and yet you don't give a shit. Indians suffer from hunger all the time, get kidnapped out on the streets or have their kids trafficked, die from easily preventable causes, and defecate on the streets. Yes, India is so much better than the USSR.
>>13597 >all those fucking downvotes KEK
>>13597 what is polack saying?
>>13740 nevermind he has the lyrics in description, i google translate
>>13708 >The most important thing is democracy where you get a lots of things for free. Such as but not limited to free press, accountability and less fear than in dictatorships. Okay, now show me how having "freedom of expression" (a meme that doesn't actually exist in capitalism) or freedom of press (constantly suppressed in capitalist countries, even 1st world) is in any way going to give you lifetime free food, housing and healthcare, or at least try to prove that a capitalist """democracy""" is the only type of government that can secure aid and execute strategies to prevent famine. Also what's democracy to you? Just having elections for the president and so on every x years? That's not what democracy was originally when it first appeared in Greece, and there are different types of democracy with varying levels of participation from the citizens; socialists have always advocated for direct and participatory democracy. A society where the only choices the people can make are their leaders and occasionally a referendum, is not more "democratic" than a society where its members/the workforce makes every important decision that will affect all instead of having to accept whatever decision comes from a factory owner or government. But if that's what you believe, explain how the Soviet Union was not democratic, considering this picture. >>13708 >Portugal and Spain had little to none of that. But they had no famines. Because they were and are more technologically advanced. They're developed countries, part of the 1st world. And again, they have better climate than Russia and Ukraine. Yet Spain, a monarchy that allows descendants of a right-wing dictator to join the government, is far from being a good place to live and work right now. Also, Portugal is a republic (not a kingdom like Spain) whose two major political parties are the Socialist Party and the Social Democratic party (although the latter became centre-right). >>13708 >Then I'm curious if there's a strict definition of who's a "kulak" that everyone can agree upon. Owners of farms. I get the impression that you didn't actually witness this disagreement over the definition that you claim exists. Let me give you a little tip: basing your attacks on memes about communism and its supporters that you read on the internet doesn't work with communists. Maybe you should confirm your beliefs before posting stupid shit.
>>13708 >The most important thing is democracy where you get a lots of things for free >such as free press, accountability and less fear <no, having your basic necessities covered for free does not count
>>13096 >Kulak is whoever who has surplus seed when the season is over and a healthy cow where you can't feel the ribs. t. Robert Conquest. In May 1929, the Sovnarkom issued a decree that formalised the notion of kulak household, whereby any of the following defined a kulak: >Use of hired labor. >Ownership of a mill, a creamery (маслобойня, 'butter-making rig'), other processing equipment, or a complex machine with a motor. >Systematic renting out of agricultural equipment or facilities. >Involvement in trade, money-lending, commercial brokerage, or other sources of non-labor income.
>>13049 When I say Homo Odor you say Axe. Homo Odor.
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>>13089 Perhaps this is one of those videos? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFCIgSfpalY
>>13708 >Such as but not limited to free press, accountability and less fear than in dictatorships. Did any of those exist in Latin American countries where socialist leaders were assassinated and replaced with capitalist CIA-approved presidents?
>>13112 > they already had a famine in USSR in 1921 Except that famine was caused by and began during the Czar's rule you dumbass. Moreover it, just like the holodomeme, affected most of europe, with most photos of "le holodomor" coming from places like Austria, Bulgaria and Hungary, and depict starving people.
>>13680 I love how these photos are flaunted by /pol/ and they don't realize that it's just some drunk alcoholic, passed out on the street.
This is a based thread
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yolodomor
>>15309 So a leninist coup against a popular uprising AND someone confusing one photo for another makes Holodomor a non-event? Also, what caused the famine outside of USSR? Because famine was not really a thing outside concentration/death camps in Nazi Germany during the war. Man, that's like those who claims that the Holocaust didn't happen because someone mislabeled a photo saying that it was Polizeibatallion 101 in late 1942 but it really was in early 1943 and you can tell, because the buttons on the uniforms are different. Or why not say that the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't happen? Because there is one book about the war where there's a pic of a nuclear test in the pacific on the cover. I think it's Ivy Mike in 1952. You can tell the difference between them and Little Boy and Fat Man. First, because there's really little photos and film of them. They didn't have an entire signal corps that could make great shots and they had to get hell outa Dodge. Second, because the nuclear tests in the pacific had not only often higher yields but has also much more cauliflower-like mushroom clouds because the climate is more humid there.
>>15309 >Except that famine was caused by and began during the Czar's rule you dumbass. This famine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1891%E2%80%9392 <The Russian famine of 1891–92 began along the Volga River, then spread as far as the Urals and Black Sea. The famine caused 375,000 to 500,000 deaths. The reawakening of Russian Marxism and populism is often traced to the public's anger at the Tsarist government's poor handling of the disaster. So it like crept on for 30 years like some fire in the ground or what?
>>15349 >Muh Holodomeme schizophrenic misreading is hilarious. Your pathetic strawmen and false equivalencies are non-arguments, STAY MAD https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1109532
>>15352 No the Volga famine. The Hunger began back in 1915-16, with the first protests arising after workers began demanding bread. The violent response led to the liberal-democratic takeover. When Kerensky did not end the war the people supported the Bolsheviks and took over, and focused on the Civil War with the White Guard, meaning that crops and farmland were unavailable. Thus the hunger grew into a widespread famine. This same famine affected MOST of Europe.
>>13738 So capitalism are now signified by red/black flags. Ok, fine by me. And what exactly is "capitalism"? Remember that for most of the postwar decades, India was some kind of mixed economy. Just because you in India or Sweden or whatever in 1960 had a free pricing on just one, many or all goods and services doesn't make it capitalist. And your whataboutism about death toll is as unbecoming as the bad optics in the ancapmissedthemarkwhatever pic. Just please get these three concepts before you continue to defend dead white men, ok? Per capita, intensity and magnitude. Let's assume that 5000 indians dies every year from poverty. India has an estmimated population of 1.35 billion. Death per capita is then 1 per 270,000. Ok? The lowest estimate of deaths from the Holodomor is 3 million. If we assume that the death per capita compared to today's India was the half - 1 per 135,000. How large would have the population affected have been? Ca 405,000,000,000 And I get that large numbers are confusing. But one thousand and one million aren't even neighboring magnitudes. But because both are so huge, the human mind like blanks out. But to make it simple for everyone to understand. Most people would pay €1 to be taught a simple bar trick or play a round of pinball. Few would pay €1000 for it. And from a psychological POV, I can understand defending the policies of a stillborn system some 90 years after the fact. It's just throwing good money after bad. But thinking that defending it will automagically make the bad societies better is something I cannot grasp. And I don't pretend that I really care about indians, so please step off your high horse. But I have some grasp of psychology. Most indians would shudder at the idea that they need more of the worst from the west, or even the west at all, to solve their problems. May I suggest that you listen to this video. Jung is really concerned about the West's reputation after the war (and I nicked the exampled with the indians from him). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_dXo8418cU >>13920 >definition of what a "kulak" is Ok, that was a clear cut definition. Totally something worth to just uproot everything and then burn it to the ground. Why not add "Can write two sentences that hasn't been approved by the local soviet" to the list to make it perfect?
>>15366 Fun facts from the USSR: Alexandra Kollontai had these interesting ideas about love and relationships. But the USSR couldn't manage to make good diaphragms.
>>15368 >No the Volga famine. The Hunger began back in 1915-16, with the first protests arising after workers began demanding bread. The violent response led to the liberal-democratic takeover. When Kerensky did not end the war the people supported the Bolsheviks and took over, and focused on the Civil War with the White Guard, meaning that crops and farmland were unavailable. Thus the hunger grew into a widespread famine. This same famine affected MOST of Europe. Ok. But going after a wild goose chase after the artificial spook "the kulak" didn't make anyting better. The bar is set so low that why not declare the USSR a kulak too? Because their functionaries got paid, yes? Either in money, in kind or both. (Being paid with hugs doesn't count.)
>>15376 >bullshit math <Muh kulaks https://awfulavalanche.wordpress.com/2015/11/27/kulax-heroes-or-villains/ alternathistory.com/kulachestvo-kak-klass
>>15383 >going after a wild goose chase after the artificial spook "the kulak" see >>15387 there is no spook or goosechase faggot
>>15387 TIL >owning a complex machine with a motor makes you a bad person that basically deserves to die >India is always a useful bludgeon, because no one here has been there >give a strict definition of what a "kulak" is exempts you from giving a strict definition of what "capitalism" is, so basically capitalism is everywhere and therefore to blame for everything >mislabeling photos makes only, but only the Holodomor a non-event, not so for the Holocaust nor the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki What have you learned today?
>>15387 Oh, this is rich! Really rich. The pic is from a theatrical play and doesn't prove anything. The antebellum US South gives good examples of passive and active land owners. Despite having good soil it was really improductive because of the redneck culture. It was only after swiss and germans arrived that something did happen. They knew how to make dairy products. They built bridges instead of wading trough rivers. They took care for the livestock during the winter etc. The only advantage the slave plantages had was the soil and the scale of economy. We may never know what would have happened to the plantages if there was no Civil War. But given the swiss/german work ethic vs the redneck. They would probably have been bought out all in the early 1900s. And it doesn't really matter if every person in the world is given the same stuff or that almost all land is owned by a few. Because if you won't mix your property or allotment with your labor, you will fail.
>>15394 Nice strawman faggot. Keep making shit up glownig
>>15396 >more schizoposting stay mad, you have no argument, only fallacies
>>15349 literally no one is saying there was no famine, holodomor refers to an intentionally created famine to genocide Ukrainians, this is what is being disputed, where is your evidence that Stalin or the Kremlin or the Ukrainian SSR decided to intentionally create a famine? don't use any speculations, because I can speculate too. >>15376 this mixed economy meme needs to end. there is no such thing as mixed capitalism/socialism, it is literally impossible. you can halfway overthrow the bourgeoisie in a country. India IS and WAS capitalist, the nords are capitalist, this is not a matter of opinion. you also need to stop comparing two regions with two completely situations, the food crises and poverty issues are quite a symptom of capitalism. read my post from earlier and see that grain had to be gifted to the Indians so they would not collapse of hunger, and even with all that help, farmland, and time they still cannot reach food security, why are you comparing it to a country that just came from a large civil war 10 years after its creation and expecting magic results. no one claims socialism is a utopia and things are always bound to go wrong when you do it for the first time, but there is absolutely no evidence that there was a targeted persecution of Ukrainians, so once again you comparison falls flat, despite whatever nonsense mathematics you attempt to use to justify India's poverty and starvation. >>15383 what are you even talking about here? kulak refers to an individual who owned a farm, the USSR cannot be a kulak its not even an individual, the definition is pretty clear cut. Beyond that kulaks arent an artifical spook, they actively made the famine worse, if anyone genocided Ukraine it was the kulaks who did not care for the people who worked their farms. >>15394 this is retarded 1. owning that machine doesnt make you a bad person, working the people on your farm so harshly for more money and then exacerbating a famine does 2. what are you even saying here man? this one isn't even a coherent thought 3. capitalism is a mode of production where the bourgeoisie own the means of production and utilize proletarians to create profit in order to purchase more means of production, no the USSR does not fall into this definition because they are by definition not the bourgeoisie because the state elects its members. 4. ok? don't use mislabeled photos i guess, there are real photos of the famine. plus no one said there was no famine retard >What have you learned today? when faced with facts you don't like, you kinda just whine about it.
>>15420 >you can halfway overthrow the bourgeoisie in a country. can't*
>>15420 Based response, I was too tired to even bother with their bad-faith arguments.
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>>13049 When I say Wolyń, you say sorry Wolyń
>>15420 >literally no one is saying there was no famine, holodomor refers to an intentionally created famine to genocide Ukrainians, this is what is being disputed, where is your evidence that Stalin or the Kremlin or the Ukrainian SSR decided to intentionally create a famine? don't use any speculations, because I can speculate too. Still a democide by negligence. We are withnessing this during the pandemic. >mixed economy is a meme Ok. So now it's 1970. You get an amount of money that's equivalent to ten median workers annual salary. What country do you pick to do business in. Sweden or India? >food security Relies on the fundamental fact that farmers must be able to work independently. That doesn't mean that they can do just whatever they want, such as but not limited to using banned pesticides or ruin other farmer's water supply. (As a matter of fact, the oldest living legal tradition is "riverine law". Also, geometry is related to that because in riverlands the ground often shifts so it's extra important to be able to draw, measure and record boundaries.) But forcefully and ineptly sticking your fingers into the machinery, or to be more precise sticking *other* people's fingers into the machinery is just asking for disaster. And a ban on paying farm labor or owning things with motors in just sounds nice. But consider this: 1) Orchards requires aborists. But every orchard owner cannot afford an aborist to be on standby. Nor can the owner spend time to be his own aborist. Therefore it's better for both the single orchard owner or a group of them to hire an aborist. It could be a flat rate calculated per tree. If it's a good year the aborist has an easy job, if it's a bad year not so. Of course this could be circumvented by making the aborist part of the household. Trough adult adoption, if that is possible. Or to have him marry one of your daughters. But this is where it goes against personal orientation. The basic requirement for being an aborist is to like trees. But unless you're an in-house aborist, you must also like to move around quite a lot. Even if it's a small area and you're traveling around with horse and a cart. You are still extremely mobile compared to the sendentary orchardists (because there's always something to do at a farm). And even if we assume that all orchards can afford the surplus value needed to feed their aborist that is now part of the family. It is still a waste of labor and the aborist may be unhappy as he cannot be as mobile as he wanted. And then there's other specialists such as knife sharpeners, blacksmiths, bricklayers that the average farm cannot afford. The only people who would have the least malus from this system are really large extended families under one paterfamilias. Fourier was really out there. But his ideas of natural attractions does in no way contradict market economy. 2) Thingie with a motor. Philo Farnsworth (1906-1971) was the father of modern television. And he was a farmer boy. That kinda makes sense, because if you're plowing a field or doing some other repetetive task you must of course concentrate on it. But you can also think of fundamental things over and over without really wasting any time. Now, if Farnsworth had polio and weak legs. He may have done all the same inventions. Or he may have done other inventions of a more agricultural nature. We cannot know. But what we know is that inventing and maintaining a thingie with a motor in is something you can do into your old age, as you don't have to be a young buck that can toil for hours in the field. So what's the harm in someone inventing a labor-saving device? Even if it's a village owned mill or whatever. Someone will be the mill specialist that can make a part time living on maintaining it. >nonsense mathematics Nope. You must get that India is really a huge country. The number of muslims in India is on the same magnitude as USSR citizens in total. Then there's the fundamental fact that humans doesn't really get large numbers. But to put it like this: If we assume that "only" 2.000.000 died during the Holodomor. And we assume that 10.000 dies in India every year from poverty. It would still take 200 years for India to reach the same death toll. And if we also assume that it has been so from the independence in 1947 it's still 127 years left to 2147. It would be a hard sell for the average indian to say that admit that inept state intervention in USSR caused famines upon famines but that you in India suffer even more. Because you don't have famines that wreaks havoc. You have pOvErTy! >mislabeled photos Nice backtrack. When I saw Ivy Mike at the WW2-book cover, I cringed. The only reason that you can defend it is a symbolic use of that photo. Here's an article that not only adresses the use of Ivy Mike, but also the smoke plume from the firestorm beign confused with the original mushroom cloud. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/science/hiroshima-atomic-bomb-mushroom-cloud.html <Mr. Roark said the cloud, if it were nuclear in nature, would be larger than the one resulting from the most powerful bomb the United States ever detonated, which was a thousand times stronger than Little Boy. And then there's the confusion between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki clouds. Nagasaki is often taken for Hiroshima. So with all these shots made during the testing, it isn't strange if there's a confusion of identity. Operation Crossroads cause a global shortage of film and photo stock. You may recognize Crossroad Baker from Dr. Strangelove. And it can be regarded as the world's first nuclear disaster. But you gotta use a lot of Fat Man bombs to cause a *global* nuclear holocaust. A lot. And the descendants of the Bikini Atoll inhabitants hasn't been able to move back yet. (Oopsie! I just defended property rights. XD) So unintentional mislabeling of pictures doesn't imply an agenda. But if we're going to say that mislabeled pictures invalidates an event, then pretty much of history will go down the drain.
>>15383 >wild goose chase after the artificial spook "the kulak" didn't make anyting better A spook so artificial it organized terror campaigns against collectivization, lmao
>>13080 I would take a free apple
>>15861 >A spook so artificial it organized terror campaigns against collectivization, lmao If they had bothered to arse the peasants they regarded collectivization as Serfdom 2: Electric Boogaloo. Thinking that the russian civil war was just between whites and reds is just paying to both aristocrats and bolsheviks. The peasants was a faction of their own, the greens. And feels isn't more worth than reels. But feels may cause reels. The bolsheviks had no grasp on the peasant's personal superstructure nor base. Therefore they steamrolled them by thinking that they changed the base but they really was victims of their own superstructure.
>>15853 >Still a democide by negligence. We are withnessing this during the pandemic. so its not a genocide? then its not "the holodomor" where "le ebil gommies intentionally killed people" simple as. if you want to debate if it could have been avoided that is a different story. >Ok. So now it's 1970. You get an amount of money that's equivalent to ten median workers annual salary. What country do you pick to do business in. Sweden or India? what type of business? why do people who support capitalism not understand how it works, the material conditions of both vary immensely, the areas are good for different types of businesses, so what type of business? >Relies on the fundamental fact that farmers must be able to work independently. so farmers in india are not working independently? if they aren't explain why there are different owners for the farms, if they are why is there food insecurity? why did the indian government deem it necessary to step in to help? wouldn't the independent farmers have solved this issue? >And a ban on paying farm labor or owning things with motors in just sounds nice. But consider this: i don't know where this is coming from, no one said people can't pay farm labor or own things. nice strawman retard, you just wasted time to prove nothing simply because you don't know anything about what youre debating. >Even if it's a village owned mill or whatever. Someone will be the mill specialist that can make a part time living on maintaining it. literally an argument socialists make, if work becomes more productive in less time it becomes less necessary to work longer hours to achieve the same goal, my man do you even have an inkling of what youre talking about? what you fail to understand is what i said, and ill assume its because you can't read. ill break it down for you here <owning that machine doesnt make you a bad person, working the people on your farm so harshly for more money and then exacerbating a famine does <working the people on your farm so harshly for more money and then exacerbating a famine does this is the part that makes kulaks bad, not owning or "inventing" machines. >Nope. You must get that India is really a huge country. yes it is nonsense mathematics, youre comparing two countries not where it is applicable. india receives a ton of aid from foreign powers, Ukraine only had its equally backward at the time federal government, not the entire allied powers supporting it, and even with all that extra support india is still barely not starving, this is an argument against independent farms because when collectivization ended food security was achieved by the end of it. also poverty leads to starvation dumbass, ask indians how much they love to live in slums. >Nice backtrack. no backtrack, i just said if theyre proven to be mislabeled used properly labeled photos, i even admitted they exist, are you actually retarded? oh also >So unintentional mislabeling of pictures doesn't imply an agenda. youre right, thank god it wasnt unintentional otherwise the smallest point of the most irrelevant portion of my argument would be ruined :'( >>15864 >Serfdom 2: Electric Boogaloo prove it, i asked you pretty politely before. where is your evidence.
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repent for Wolyn massacre hohols
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>>13049 how can i apologize for something that didn't happen?
>>15961 >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THIS IS STALINS FAULT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>15961 A true classic.
>>15869 Please try to put the extra effort by starting the sentences with a capital letter. It's much easier on the eyes. Genocide is just a subset of democide. Genocide are worse than democide by negligence. But that doesn't make democide by negligence les bad. I just have three things to say. 1) You blew it with the example of doing business in Sweden or India in 1970. You could've said oh, I dunno a spoonmaker in India. Seems comfy, lol. And that wouldn't have been any more or less right or wrong than any other answer. Thing is, both countries had their advantages. Sweden was politically stable. And in India you can get cheaper labor. But there's no wrong or right answer her. But instead you went into an insane flurry of details. Maybe it's the very thought that worsened crop failures in USSR? Just maybe. 2) If this isn't a way to diminish the importance of the Holodomor, then nothing is diminishing: >>15309 >Except that famine was caused by and began during the Czar's rule you dumbass. Moreover it, just like the holodomeme, affected most of europe, with most photos of "le holodomor" coming from places like Austria, Bulgaria and Hungary, and depict starving people. If you think that the Holodomor was a democide and a crime on the part of USSR (that really should have learned to not fuck around with the economy). Then the natural reaction should be "The Holodomor was a tragedy, but this photo is from another place and/or time." But using your logic to excuse the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki i could do something like this: Appeal to former habbenings: By August 1945, the US had already torched several japanese cities. So one plane with one bomb isn't that different from hundreds planes with tens of thousands of bombs. Both the lowest and highest estimates of total deaths during the invasion of Okinawa are both higher than the total lowest and highest estimates of deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Therefore it was ok to nuke them. Mislabeling of pictures Once more, there's intentional and unintentional mislabeling. Then there's iconic and symbolic use of pictures. An iconic picture depicts something specific. A symbolic picture depicts something general. Therefore you could have a sign with a photo or the first USSR nuclear test that says "No more Hiroshima" and you wouldn't be really that wrong. But if the sign says "Look what the americans did to Hiroshima" then you are only partly right on a factual level. Yes, they nuked Hiroshima, but they didn't use *that* nuke. Also, what's the figures of the dead austrians, bulgarians and hungarians? 3) The gut reaction of the farmers when they heard about collectivization was that it sounded like serfdom. It was abolished in 1861. That was 67 years before 1928, and that's nothing in a family's history.
>>15961 >be Stalin >paranoid rapist that should have been lynched by the irish in London >thinks that you can betray people indefinitely then have them trust you when you really need it >also never cry wolf >can't effortpost by asking farmers please nor make them junior partners nor just pay for it Why is he important again?
>>15962 It's Stalin's fault just as much as it's Trump's fault that the US has the most deaths of covid-19. If you're moody, unpredictable and uncouth for years. Then you can't magically rely on people's kindness and sudden ability to read minds when you really need it.
>>15968 >actually thinks Clinton would have done much better Even Europe got utterly fucked by this burgerstahn didn't have a hope in hell The only difference is your bourgeois media would have covered it up lmao
>>15966 >Please no >democide definition is "the intentional killing of an unarmed or disarmed person by government agents acting in their authoritative capacity and pursuant to government policy or high command." provide evidence it was intentional neglect >You blew it doesnt matter how simple or complex the answer is, you created a false equivalence which is a fallacy so it doesnt warrant an answer. >Maybe it's the very thought that worsened crop failures in USSR? very thought of what? this is an incomplete thought >The gut reaction of the farmers third time man, prove it, saying it three times doesnt make it true >>15967 soviet union was the longest lasting experiment, it should be studied for its errors and new solutions should conceived for these errors. Stalin is important because he was the figure head at the time, you could say kremlin in the 30's if you prefer, it would even be more accurate. >>15968 stalin sent food aid to ukraine vs trump giving bailouts to the rich? again if you wanna debate if how the famine may have been avoided thats a different discussion, the debate at hand is about "if the holodomor happened or was it a natural famine"
>>15967 >paranoid rapist LOL wut >you can betray people indefinitely Bitch how lol >incoherent babbling LOL stay mad
>>15864 >If they had bothered to arse the peasants they regarded collectivization as Serfdom 2 Except they didn't. The Peasants were for the concept of removing Kulak power. The problem was that the famine caused people who are thinking about themselves and the short-term to be unsatisfied with the immediate results, since communism isn't magic and doesn't make crops grow faster, just more effectively. >The peasants was a faction of their own, the greens The Greens were never popular and the peasants were largely behind the Bolsheviks and the RKKA; The Red Workers and PEASANTS Army. The majority of factions in the Civil war sided with the Bolsheviks or White Guard, as they were the only ones who actually had any influence. >The bolsheviks had no grasp on the peasant's personal superstructure nor base The fact that the Kolkhoz system functions very well even in today's capitalist Russia and it's machinations says otherwise. Moreover They were transitioning literal medieval era farming to modern era, skipping over the development and using experimental research to the best of their ability. This claim about "muh bad decisions" is fallacious as fuck. The Famine would have still happened and without collectivization, there would have been far less food and seed grain for the people and therefore far HIGHER death tolls, as was under the Czar >hinking that they changed the base but they really was victims of their own superstructure Absolute delusion.
>>15853 >democide by negligence Already debunked given that as soon as news of famine reached Stalin, they immediately sent food relief. Stalin wasn't fucking Harry Potter and couldn't conjure food from thin air, so there was rationing. >all this diatribe about "muh farmers" that boils down to individual circumstance and semantics that ignores the fact that prior to collectivization there was no food security and to develop such a system takes TIME, even with 5 year plans. You have no point, just a critique of flaws with no real solutions because this isn't some first world country that has plenty of educated people ready to work, but an impoverished, wartorn country that is making rapid new changes for the better because if it takes the slow and easy route, they get crushed and people die even more. It's a choice between saving 1 million people and 1000 people. It's horrid either way, but if you don't make a decision, it will be made for you.
>>15972 >still doesn't want to get that negligence is part of the definition of democide >if someone makes finally good they are excused from past crimes TIL that there's people who can defend both Stalin and Trump. >still didn't get that the starting capital for Sweden or India was 10 years of median salaries for the specific country No, it's you who make a false equivalence between Sweden and India in 1970 because both countries had a minimum of capitalism in them. But Sweden was still a more free country than India AND having a better social security net. >>15974 Don't you know that Stalin and the other boys was in London in the early 1900s? He tried to have his way with an irish girl and had to be saved.
>>15992 >don't you know *proceeds to recite urban myth* Didn't you know Trump grabbed Jizzaline's pussy one time as a joke at a party! It's totally TRUUUU! Fuck off.
>>15992 could you provide evidence for these following claims: >negligence is part of the definition of democide (this one should be easy since i didnt even look up the term past the first result of google, so if youre not totally lying you got this :)) >He tried to have his way with an irish girl and had to be saved. >Serfdom 2: Electric Boogaloo >me defending trump >No, it's you who make a false equivalence no such as thing as minimum of capitalism, it either is or isnt, sorry dude. beyond that no one mentioned sweden until you, maybe dont force false equivalences and get upset no one agrees bro.
I say Conscious Honor and you say <Thank you Señor Carlos Marciano.
I say Heli Rotor and you say <Get to the Choppa
>>16001 TIL that just one quantum of capitalism makes the whole society 100% capitalist. There is no such thing as easier or harder to just run a hot dog stand in different countries.
>>13080 why do they put apples in front of the monument?
>>16083 Semantics. Real people suffers hunger, but hey, let's put apples around a statue that doesn't need it.
>>15834 based popeposter
>>15966 >democide by negligence prove that was what happened in the '32 famine
>>15992 >both countries had a minimum of capitalism in them >a minimum of capitalism >>15967 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GZBYgMlPcI
>>16072 Define capitalism and prove that there can only be "a quantum of capitalism" in a country.
>>16072 >One quantum Buddy, just stop trying to act smart You don't understand either system, here's some friendly advice: Pick up a book, stop being terminally online, and most importantly don't use "complex" words to sound smart. Maybe you'll develop a "quantum" of real life experience.
This thread is both based and comedy gold. Screencap please
>>16088 Dubs of truth >>16091 Is it really any funnier or based than the other golodomeme thread?
>>16092 Threads* I've seen multiples of this in the short time I've been here already
>>16092 It's useful, and the first Holodomeme thread in a while.
>>16106 Well hopefully it's over, I've tried killing this thread 3 times already
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Hi, I'm Troy McClure. You may recognize me from the soviet endeavors such as "Split the Bill" from 1939, "Imperial Overreach" from 1945, a string of films that I really don't remember only that they was shot in 1953, 1956 and 1968 and of course my favorite "My own Vietnam" from 1979. Last one is out of my hands since 30 years ago, but it has produced numerous sequels and spinoffs and I don't want to brag, but I was involved in the pre-production in 1978. And "My own Vietnam" may sound like some kind of moody television film, and I admit that it does really smacks of cribbing. But the show was and is so different so that even the makers of the original doesn't seem to care about it. All is fair in art and war, right? Right? But the most embarrassing points in my career was when I in 1932 self-cribbed myself by making a remake of the film from 1921. It was really embarrassing. The plots was identical. The only difference I made was to change the scenery and the costumes, but on a shoestring budget. And I may sound like someone that has it just easy. Just running his mouth here. And there is something in excellency that we all can aspire to, actors or not. But the most interesting series of films was put up by someone's ancestors, waaaayyy back in the Bronze Age. What they called the films we don't really know. But we call them the "Palace Economy Cycle". And this is where it gets really embarrassing for me: From what I've learned they spent centuries on perfecting their craft. Without any drastic changes imposed by the producers where the script writers, set designers, costume makers etc had to pick up the extra cost. They just spent centuries to perfecting their craft. Imagine that! And in hindsight, you could say that I could have done the same thing. But if I had given myself centuries I wouldn't be me.
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>>16113 You just had to jinx it

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